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Beyond Goodbye: The Profound Legacy of Our Animal Friends
When Laurita's voice cracked with emotion recounting how the sudden loss of her dog Bruin pierced her heart, I knew this conversation was going to be a profound exploration of grief's tender territory. As we shared our stories, we wove a tapestry of love, loss, and the deep bonds that form with our animal companions. This episode is a sanctuary for those aching souls who've felt the sting of society's minimization of pet loss, inviting you to honor the weight of this very real sorrow alongside us.
Navigating grief is akin to wandering through an unmapped forest, each step revealing a new shade of pain, remembrance, and, occasionally, growth. Laurita and I traverse the emotional landscape of mourning, from the silent anniversaries that reignite dormant heartache to the shared experience of a child's first encounter with death through the loss of a pet. We lay bare the complexities of these relationships, affirming the legitimacy of every tear shed. Our exchange serves as a gentle reminder that grief's hierarchy is a myth; all forms of loss are deserving of a voice and a compassionate ear.
Closing this chapter, I'm filled with a profound gratitude for the connections forged in the crucible of shared grief. This isn't merely a dialogue about loss; it's a tribute to the lives—human and animal—that have left indelible marks on our souls. For those seeking solace or understanding, the stories and resources we discuss might offer a measure of comfort. You're not alone on this journey, and it's conversations like these that knit us closer together, providing a blanket of collective healing for the grieving heart.
Learn more about Laurita @wildlyunraveled
Give Grief a Seat Article by Laurita Gorman
Website: www.lauritagorman.com
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Join me, portia Chambers, as I sit down with women just like you, sharing moments in their lives that shape them into who they are today Stories of motherhood, betrayal, transformation, love and loss, vulnerable conversations, deep connection and collective healing. Welcome to the this Is we podcast. All right, so this is a first on the this Is we podcast. All right, so this is a first on the this Is we podcast. We have a returning guest and I'm really excited about this conversation. So Loretta is here and she is back and we are going to be talking about grief and before we kind of get into the deep discussion about grief, loretta is going to share a little bit of her story around grief and how it has impacted her life, and we're going to kind of get into all the juicy stuff after. So, loretta, welcome back.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So good to be back and to talk, because we were chatting in our Instagram voice memo all about this stuff and we're like you know what? We need to just have a conversation about this, because it's a big topic and, as we chatted about, we don't, society doesn't talk about it enough. No, and every, every single human on this planet goes through grief at some point. So I mean it's a universal experience for everybody.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, I mean I've had different chapters of grief in my life and that's through loss, through losing some family members, losing my dog, and then we justify those losses when our pets die, Often when if it is an animal, we tend to justify those to people that it's not as significant as a human being, or having a miscarriage or or anything else. It's kind of like oh, it's just a dog, or it's just a cat or just a chicken in my case, but those losses are just as significant in our lives.
Speaker 1:So I think, I think we'll start. We'll start there, and I know it will intertwine with something else, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And even the first thing I wanted to say to that was the people who say it's just a dog. I'm like are the people who don't have a dog and I've never had a dog right? Losing my boy? Losing my boy Bruin? So he was 11, almost 12. And because of the pandemic, I was stuck here in Australia. So in March 2020, we literally had flights to come back to Canada. I was coming back there to live and that was a big thing, and so the pandemic obviously put a big hold on that. Naively, I thought it would only be a couple months, Sure enough years later. So during that time, it was October 2021 when we lost him and it was really sudden and unexpected. And it was. He was just unwell for a couple of days, but nothing too alarming. And I remember my parents. I had a chat with my parents. They just said, oh yeah, you know, he's not really himself, he's just a little bit unwell. But you know, dogs do that, right, where they throw up a little bit, and it's fine. You know, maybe they've eaten grass, that kind of thing. Um, and yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:The really interesting thing was I woke. This is the thing with living far away. Um, it's always really hard and this goes back to just previous chapters where I was always getting phone calls when something terrible happened and I had kind of developed this panic and anxiety when my parents' phone number would light up on my phone, because I always knew that you know something's happened. And it was a Saturday morning for us here and it was Friday for my parents and I woke up in the morning and I looked at my phone and there was a bunch of missed calls and immediately I knew something was up. And then Andy, my partner, also had a missed call. So then like for sure, I'm like something's going on. And it was really interesting because I knew I have two dogs, so Molly and Bruin, and they're from the same litter.
Speaker 2:I brought two home at once and I started crying in bed and I was really distressed and Andy said it's okay, it's okay. And I said no, it's not, it's not okay. And I know that they're calling me about my boy and I know that it's brewing. I know something's happened and I knew it was him and, yeah, my dad called. I answered no, I called him back and it was so hard to hear my dad's pain as well, because they have their own little relationship with them now because they've had to care for them. While I wasn't able to come home and my dad was just breaking he was just breaking to tell me he's just said I'm really sorry, but Bruin's no longer with us and I was just a mess.
Speaker 2:I was so distressed and I couldn't understand what had happened. I kept saying, like, what happened? What happened, like I needed to know all the details, and the fact that I wasn't there that's a whole different level. The grief for me is that I'm his mama and I wasn't there in those final moments when he was dying, when he was scared, when he didn't know what was going on, and thankfully my mom and dad were there and thankfully they got to be with him and he has a relationship with them, of course. So he was so loved on. But that grief was and still is, like I'm like holding back tears even talking about this, because it's still you know, it's been just over two years and I still cry thinking about him, I still miss him and um, it's.
Speaker 2:It was such a hard journey because so many people don't understand and so many people minimize it, and it's like these were the dogs who made me a mama for the first time in my life it was my first time mothering little beings and and also, just, they've been with me since 2010, early 2010. And so we had a life together and a journey together and they've been with me through some of the hardest chapters of my life and they were my constant. You know, they were my constant and they provide so much from a co-regulation standpoint and a nervous system standpoint and mental health standpoint, and so it's a significant loss and to me, they were my children. I don't have human babies. Those were my babies and I really, really struggled and I remember I cried every single day and I remember a month went by and I was like when does this end? When does the crying every day stop?
Speaker 2:Because it was really, really hard and plus, not being able to be there and to not be with my parents, who were also going through the loss, and just not feeling like I could really talk about it, because it felt they people didn't understand the gravity of it and the intensity of it and the loss that I was experiencing. And it felt kind of weird to talk about it because it's quote unquote just a dog, you know and it felt a bit weird for me to talk about it with people. And then also the added layer of, well, somebody lost their parent or somebody lost some significant family member. Who am I to talk about? Losing my dog? You know what I mean. Like there was a lot of that as well. So I would kind of handpick the certain people who I could talk to about it.
Speaker 2:But truthfully, it was talking to my mom a lot. You know my mom was going through a massive loss with it as well. You know she really struggled with losing him. And even my surviving dog, you know Molly, she went through her own grief process. She lost weight. She was not herself.
Speaker 2:So it really, really it's a family member. It is a family member and for some people who have an animal, a pet, doesn't matter what it is, it's their only family member. You know. That's who they come home to. That's who is there to greet them at the end of a hard day. That's who's there to provide them comfort and unconditional love. And the love of a dog is just so pure and innocent and just. They accept and love all parts of you, even the parts that you don't accept and love about yourself. They do, you know, and yeah, and so it was.
Speaker 2:I don't even know how long I cried every day for, but I remember even looking I looked up podcasts about pet laws because I needed to hear from other people who understood me, who understood the process and how hard it is. I found that I really was lacking this understanding from folks and I really needed to find that myself. And I did. You know, I did from hearing other people's stories and people talking about their loss publicly, like really actually helped me to normalize it, to make sense of it, to not feel that I'm, you know, the only one experiencing such intense emotions. Yeah, so it. I still cry, I still cry about him all the time. And then just returning home to Canada so it had been gosh four and a half years since I had been home because of the pandemic. So just going home now a few months ago was the first time I was able to collect his ashes. So going home it was like it's like rebirthing, it almost yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Re-experiencing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, because living far away like I often say to people when I like living here, I feel like I live on another planet and there's almost this separation where I'm kind of in my own bubble, living my life and things that happen at home don't feel real in a way, because I'm not there to integrate the loss of what it's like to live with them. So, like going home and only having my one dog greet me, that was a moment of like there's only one now, there's not two. And you know my mom had saved all of his stuff and saved some of his fur for me and I got his ashes and I just broke down, like I broke down. So much of just the completion of that. And like here's his ashes and I have a necklace with his ashes in it and his paw print and all of those kinds of things that I had made happen at the time that we lost him. And even just talking to my parents about what they went through, the decision that they had to make, knowing that it's my boy and they're in a moment of an emergency decision and it had to be made then and there and how hard that was for them, you know, and how hard it was for my dad, who was the one who brought him to the vet, and my mom said to him before he left you make sure you come home with him, you don't leave without bringing him back home. And then when he had to leave him at the vet and come back home and tell my mom that, hey, we got to go back. It's not good. You know just how much pain that was for my dad and you know my whole family went through.
Speaker 2:You know it's like it's such a significant little being in your life and that grief is just not talked about enough. It's not normalized, it's not accepted, it's not welcomed, it's maybe judged, it's shamed, it's whatever. You know, but people who have pets, animals, they're the people to talk to. They get it, they will always get it. So anytime I see someone who's, you know, lost an animal, I'm always I feel for them so much and I want to, you know, pour love into them, because that loss is really hard and it felt a bit isolating being here and of course my partner understood and knew that it was hard, but he still can only get it to a certain level, right. And so it was often me, just on my own, you know, trying to connect with other pet owners and dog owners who get it, um, and yeah, it's definitely still a tender thing and I don't think that that will ever go away.
Speaker 2:And I remember I actually was seeing a therapist um, and thankfully I was, and I remember going to see her and talking about it and just crying in her office about this loss. So like also normalizing getting support when you've lost a pet, like you don't have to just be alone in that. And it was so interesting because she had said to me me expressing just the loss and the sadness I was experiencing, and it brought up feelings of her losing her cat 18 years ago, you know, and she was even having still emotion and it's like these little beings are such a huge part of our life for a short period of our life, but a huge part of our life, you know, and we get to just normalize that loss and make it more available to talk about it. So I'm glad that we're talking about it because there's somebody out there who might listen to this, who might feel like that they're judging themselves or, um, trying to just push through and just ignore it, but it's, it's a very real loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's huge. We lost. We lost our dog kind of relatively in the same manner um, earlier this year and, like you had said, it was my first, like olive was my first dog, so we had a family dog, um, chloe. It was my husband's dog and, putting into context, I was scared of dogs. Like I, my parents didn't get a dog late in life, we grew up with cats. I was the kid that if there was a dog at the party it was attacking me, like I was the person not cuddling the dog in the corner. I was the person in the corner, petrified and wanting to leave. Like I used to get chased home almost every day off the bus by dogs. Like if you wouldn't chase my brother, I got off the bus with like several other children and it would chase me. Like it smelt my fear down the road. Like so when we got my, when I met my husband, he had this lab and to me it was like so scary, this chocolate lab they're not scary at all and but I was petrified and anyways, we had this family dog. It was our, like our first dog.
Speaker 1:Chloe and Lily was familiar with the dog and and she passed away at 13 and she lived a very beautiful life and and it was very, very hard for my husband because obviously that was that was his first child um, he had many adventures with her and so when we lost Chloe, you know, we grieved both in very different ways and so I was excited to get another dog. This would be my dog. I get to train this dog. I get to pick the breed. I get to pick the dog like. I was so elated, like I just could not wait for this adventure found the breed that I I wanted. It was a Leon Berger. Anybody's unfamiliar with it? Google it, you'll fall in love. They look like giant bears.
Speaker 1:Got on a wait list, met several breeders they're very rare to get in Canada Waited, they were very expensive. I always tell people I said I, I forego, I gave up new appliances for this dog. That's how much money they are. Like. I gave up things to get this dog Like it. It was like a thorough investment to me. So anyways, we got her. She was perfect, she was all of, she tested me, we grew together, I got to mold her and shape her and she just became this dream of a dog. She had this full personality, super spunky, very independent woman. I always say she loved me, but she fell in love with my husband. The love was very different between Olive and me and my husband and it was interesting because she respected me, listened to me. She wouldn't listen to my husband but she would look at if she was a cartoon dog. There'd be hearts pumping from her eyes the moment.
Speaker 1:She laid them on him like she loved him. Love was in love with him and unfortunately this year she just died and we we don't know what happened to this day. She's very similar, like how you were describing Bowen was. You know, she was fine all day. We went for a walk.
Speaker 1:I have another dog, louie. He's younger, same breed, and we went for a walk. We did all of our things throughout the day. My husband was even home all day, which was rare. Which was rare. They greeted my mom, was picking up my daughter. Like later in the afternoon after school she went to the door and greeted my mom like nothing out of the woodwork, went to go feed them and she wouldn't eat her food.
Speaker 1:But she was like that. She lived her life. By her own terms. I, if I want to eat at midnight, I'm eating at midnight and I'm going to wake you up because they raw food and they eat outside. So I'll wake you up and you have to go take me outside to eat. Like that's how she was. She didn't eat her food.
Speaker 1:Louie didn't seem concerned, because you're kind of always looking at the other dog to maybe help you in situations like that. Didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I said to my husband maybe you can help me get up. She seemed a little tired. Get her up, get her outside, maybe she can go pee. Maybe that will get her to eat her food. She got up, she went pee, she slept outside. She came back in and probably within 20 minutes she passed away on her bed beside our couch. And my daughter came home that night my husband was already sleeping. My daughter came home. She had a late cooking class. She comes in. The dog didn't greet her, which wasn't unordinary like I'll. To be honest. Lily was the last of her loves, like I swear she loved all of love.
Speaker 1:Louie before Lily like it was so funny didn't greet her, it nothing seemed out of out of the ordinary. And then my daughter and I were watching tv and we I let Louie in and and she's like Louie's licking Olive and she's not doing anything. And I was like, oh, she's been kind of a little bit tired. Just let them. Maybe he's just comforting her, just let her. He's like, she's like no, I don't even think Olive's breathing and I was like what do you mean?
Speaker 1:And then it was like chaos. Then it was like this realization oh, oh, my god, my 130 pound dog has just passed away on her bed. I don't even know what to do. I'm like, run upstairs I'm trying to even get the words to come out of my mouth to wake my husband up. He's in like a deep sleep and I'm like you need to get up. Something's wrong. My daughter's downstairs panicking. I'm running around panicking. Call my mom, call my dad. Like they've had several dogs pass away on them so I'm like they'll know what I need to do. Mom's like I don't know what to do, like they're in shock. I can hear like my brother's there, like he's in shock, my dad's in shock and I'm like I don't. I don't even know what to do.
Speaker 1:So we managed to get her out. I I'm at this point screaming I killed the dog Cause you immediately think, everything that I did today killed her. I fed her something different. It killed her. Like I'm screaming, I'm the. I couldn't like this. I'm going to cry, but I couldn't even the way that I sounded. I was. I was begging my husband to forgive me because I was like I did this to him, like I took away his dog. Like I was like begging him, like please forgive me, like don't, don't not love me after this. Like it was insane, don't not love me after this. Like it was insane. And anyways, there was nothing we could do.
Speaker 1:We take her to the vet and and life moved on after that. It was very it was the first time my daughter had experienced death in that manner to be there to witness it, to be a part of it, to try to help the situation. Um, she couldn't even go to the car to say goodbye. She didn't come to the vet with us. My parents came because we had another dog. We didn't know what to do at that point. You're like I have another dog that I have to care for. I have my dog. Like you're, you're trying to figure it all out. You can't take him with. You Probably could have, but so my husband and I decide to go and and we do all the stuff at the vet and everything like that, and and it was such a. It was so like the days after were just so blurry and you couldn't. It was bizarre because I couldn't even trust myself. I felt like I couldn't even trust myself with another dog because look at what I just like. Look what I did. Like I know I know now I didn't do anything wrong. We know that we didn't.
Speaker 1:We don't actually know what happened to Olive, but after talking to several breeders our own breeder we actually learned that this happens more often than not to large breeds, that they just have heart failure. Something happens. She could have had a rapid growing cancer. It could have been a million different things, but we're grateful that it happened in our home. It happened very peacefully. Maybe she even got to decide at that moment. That that's when she wanted to pass.
Speaker 1:We were okay to not have the answers because we knew with what had happened, that it was it was. It was okay, like it was right. We didn't need to go searching for anything because if anything, if we search for something that we could have prevented, it would have just even been worse. So we just wanted to not know and I'm very observant, like I noticed everything in my dogs and for me not to notice was like a blessing, or for her not to show, which just kind of told me that I didn't need to know, I wasn't supposed to know, there was nothing that we could do and that that's just the way it was and we kind of just gave her the best day that we could, without even knowing we got to see ducks. That was like our highlight every time we walked and so.
Speaker 1:But like you had said, like it was like we cried for days after, like days, weeks by. You couldn't. My, my poor other dog couldn't sleep, because every time he slept we thought he was dead. So my daughter and I would sit watch him sleep outside out the window Because we were so petrified. I don't think that she slept for days after, months after, because she was so worried that she'd wake up with the dog our other dog being dead. It was such and it was hard, because not only was it a loss of somebody that you love so much, it was so traumatic yeah, it was. And people would say, well, at least she didn't have to make the decision. I've been on both sides. Like Chloe, we had to make the decision. We took her to the vet and thought we were bringing her home and the vet told us we weren't allowed to leave. I'm sure we could have left, but he said he also knew if we left we were coming back. One of those things. I've been on both sides.
Speaker 1:Neither side is good and just because it happened peacefully in my home does not make it easier, because there's so much that happened after that moment that my husband and I have to now live with that, my daughter has to live with, like things that are embedded into your mind, into your core, that you just will never leave you and so that that kind of made it hard like that, that made that loss hard, where it's like you should be appreciative of that and I'm like, okay, I'm like maybe six months from now I'll be appreciative of that moment, of that happening, of that situation, but not now it's one of the breaks of the early gratitude.
Speaker 1:Like we're not there yet we're not there, and I think that kind of brings me up to maybe a question that you can kind of maybe help with those that are listening is how do you support somebody in in that, in in any grief, I feel like a loss and and hearing someone's story can be uncomfortable. It can be it can bring up your own, like when you were talking about um Bowen, I I'm like sucking back the tears, like I'm like don't let it stream down your face, portia. Like I'm just sitting here and everything you're saying it's just hitting me at my core but it has nothing to do, like you're not creating that and so. But some people might think like, oh my god, I'm making this person so upset I should stop talking about what.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about yeah, and I think the first thing that comes to mind is that people who lost a pet, a human, somebody in their life they want to talk about them yeah they want to.
Speaker 2:So often people will tiptoe around oh, I won't bring it up because I don't want them to get upset, I don't want them to have a bad day or cry. They want to talk about their person, their animal. That's how they process grief for some people and it's inviting the conversation because, guess what, whether you bring it up or not, that person's thinking about that person 24, seven. They're feeling it. It's there, it's in the room, it's the elephant in the room, like they are carrying that pain with them Dog sitting, by the way. You'll just hear little pitter patters. Whenever someone's going through grief, that loss is with them, no matter what, no matter what. So you might as well bring it up, and you don't have to bring it up in a way of tell me about your grief. It's just you could bring it up because that's probably not the best way to approach it, but saying things such as hey, how are you managing the loss right now? How is it for you right now? I know it's been really hard, I know it's been a really difficult chapter and I just want to check in. How are you doing? It could just be as simple as that how are you doing? Or even just acknowledging. I've been thinking about you. I know that you're navigating this huge loss in your life and that's really painful and you're on my mind and you can invite I'm here to chat about it.
Speaker 2:Or you can ask what did you love about this dog, this person? Tell me, I want to learn about them this, just you know. Tell me about them. What were they like? You know, I love talking about Bruin's quirks. He was such a quirky, weird little personality and I love talking about that. That's what made him him. That's so much of what we loved about him. You know he's so different from the same litter as Molly, but Bruin was so different, like they were night and day different dogs and I love talking about him and that. So it's inviting it in instead of tiptoeing around it and trying to just be happy and positive and not bring it up because that person's carrying that pain no matter what.
Speaker 1:So I love that you brought that up about the conversations, because recently my best friend lost her bunny and my daughter actually we would take care of it when she would go away. We would have it for like two, three weeks and it kind of just became like our little treat, like we're like oh, we get something to fuss over and it's like in our house so we can feed her and I can take pictures of her and different things like that. And very rapidly she I guess she had to decline in health and pass away. She was quite old, um, and had a very beautiful life and it was.
Speaker 1:It was very devastating for my friend and I was telling Lily about it. You know so and so lost. I'm not going to say who she is, but I'm just going it. You know so-and-so lost. I'm not going to say who she is, but I'm just going to say you know so-and-so lost, troy. And I think that you know, maybe just send her a message and she's just like what am I supposed to say? I'm like just say I'm thinking of you or send a picture of her or a funny video and be like I really I love this moment, or it wasn't she just so cute when she did that.
Speaker 1:Or remember that time when I thought she was dead but she was really just sleeping and I called you in a panic, like just reminisce. I said it doesn't have to be so like I'm so sorry for your loss. It could literally just be I'm thinking about you and this picture is one of my favorites of her and I always like it and that could be that and that will make her day. Like you know, I message her all the time and sometimes it's different, like she had to pick her up and I said you know, how was your first week, you know, with her coming back home, like how was that? And she's like it was good, it was hard. Or sometimes she's how was that? And she's like it was good, it was hard. Or sometimes she's playful and funny. She's like I was a grumpy tornado, like.
Speaker 1:And then we get to like have a little fun, like it's not always going to be dark and dismal, it can be very light and and I think that's what I love most I think I was always a person that was I was. I was that person that danced around it Like anybody. That same friend lost her brother very young and he was very near and dear to me for a lot of my life and a lot of his life. And I think in my younger years we both danced around that conversation, danced around talking about him bringing it up. We would only bring him up on his birthday, we would only bring him up on the anniversary. Like it was never talked about, like we never talked about it because it was so.
Speaker 1:It felt like it was going to be so dark and dismal every single time. And now I think, after experiencing grief and knowing what I wanted when I was kind of moving through everything, it really allowed me to lean into some of those uncomfortable moments when you are with somebody who has experienced grief and just sitting back and listening and not saying anything or sharing a similar story, or just allowing them to share whatever they want or asking questions, to be interested like I. I love what you said, like we are all thinking about it, like it's never not a time we're not thinking about them.
Speaker 1:And I love being asked about Olive, like we talk about Olive all the time, like even even in situations that she was never in, we'd be like, imagine Olive in this situation. We wouldn't be able to bring her here, like, and we would like reminisce and and it's nice because you, you always want them to be alive in your life yeah, and that's how you keep that alive.
Speaker 2:Know is talking about them and the memories and sharing that. And even you know, I think about losses we've had in our family, and you know my family member saying that she's grateful that we still bring him up and we talk about him, and that it almost, you know, gave her comfort knowing that we were also missing him too and thinking of him too. Right, and I think that that's really important and it doesn't even it doesn't matter if it's a dog, if it's a cat, if it's a horse, if it's a rat, if it's a bunny, like it doesn't matter, because that loss, for whoever that is, that's a loss. And there's this we were talking about this around this like hierarchy of grief, right, where it's as if, oh, this grief is worse than this one because they lost this person and you lost your dog, that's you. And we got to eliminate the comparing. It's not the trauma Olympics of you know it's, it's just, it's irrelevant. There's pain in the room, there's loss in the room. Somebody is grieving, period. It's not about judging it, shaming it, trying to make sense of it, it's just there's loss, loss is in the room and somebody is grieving and that's significant for that, and so we get to leave that at the door. Whatever our own preconceived judgments are or opinions are, it doesn't matter. Somebody's grieving and they're going through it, and so holding space for that person, you know, and even for ourselves, I find that sometimes even ourselves going through grief, and so holding space for that person, you know, and even for ourselves, I find that sometimes even ourselves going through grief, and there's been times where I would acknowledge it but almost have this experience of, well, I, I gotta like buckle up though, like it's just okay, like I gotta, you know, and we do we do need to function and live our lives.
Speaker 2:However, I also believe that it's important to invite grief in. You know, invite it in, give it a seat at the table, like we would joy and happiness, like give grief a seat, which is you know I just wrote an article about that around how we got to invite this grief in. Who's knocking at the door saying Hello, I'm here, see me, acknowledge me, and I would just let myself do that. You know, I would let myself, when a wave of grief would come, because it would come sometimes very unexpectedly, still does. I'll get these waves of grief that just come and I just have to allow it and let it come and be there without any judgment, without any suppression of it, just let it move up and out and through, because that's what it asks us to be an expression of not stuff it down, push it away or go binge on food or go drink alcohol, like it's asking for you to just be present with it, simply to be present. So that's for other people as well, to be present to someone's grief. You don't have to fix it, you don't have to offer a solution. There is no solution. There is no fixing it. You can't give that to somebody and what's required is simply your compassion and your presence and your comfort and your love.
Speaker 2:And I think that for folks on the receiving end, they're so uncomfortable because they love this person who's grieving and they don't want them to be sad. They don't want them to be sad, they don't want them to be in pain. So they feel this pressure to fix it or make it go away and it's like take the pressure off. That's not your job. Yeah, that is not your job. That's never anyone's job. Your job as a friend, as a support person, is to simply hold space and to love on this person and welcome their grief in and not make it this tiptoe around, this shame thing, but actually be the one to welcome it in. And this is another point around. Don't wait for that person to bring it up either. You bring it up, say, hey, how are you doing? You know? Hey, tell me about this. And hey, I'd really love to sit and just talk about it with you. I know for me, as a person who's been through grief, when somebody else would bring it up, it was this pressure and this weight lifted off me, like I don't have to bring the pain into the room. Somebody else is inviting me to share my pain. That just feels so supportive, so supportive. And it's the same way as it's a classic thing.
Speaker 2:People say when someone's grieving, like, let me know if I can do anything, no, it's a classic thing. People say when someone's grieving, like, let me know if I can do anything. No, just go do the thing, because that person who's grieving, they don't have capacity, they don't have the energy they don't have, they're just trying to survive. So don't wait for them to ask for something that you can do for them. Just go and do the thing. Leave food at their door, go and bring them flowers, or go and get their groceries or whatever. Just go and do it. That is going to make such a difference when someone's grieving, instead of them having to do the emotional labor of asking for that support. They don't have capacity for it. They don't. They're surviving to get through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a few points I want to talk about.
Speaker 1:I loved how you mentioned the hierarchy of grief and I we did chat about that in the DMs and I actually wrote it down on my notes here because I really did want to bring this up, and I felt I felt this huge when I would talk about my miscarriage.
Speaker 1:And and I'd like to add this is we're recording this two, two days before my anniversary of that. So this is like all very heightened, all very emotional and raw, uh for me. But I re I, I really really noticed that when, um, I was talking to other women and I felt at that time that I only really could talk to women about my miscarriage because I felt they would understand the most and I often leaned against women that were mothers because I knew that they would understand me the most, even if they never experienced one. They would understand what that loss would feel like or could feel like. And I remember telling a few women and having no idea that they ever had miscarriages, but how easily they diminished their loss because of my loss and it was like well, it was nothing like yours, portia, so like mine, was like so early on. So it was really I'm thinking, thinking, no, your circumstance can be so different than mine.
Speaker 1:Your loss could be not justifying either of our losses, but you could have wanted this child for 15 years and you had a loss. And maybe it was early on, maybe it was in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Pregnancy that is, you know, that's really hard. Like it's hard, regardless, it doesn't really matter. Like it was even hard. Like I'm like they're like oh, you know, you know it's nothing like yours. I'm sitting there, I'm like, no, it's, it's lost.
Speaker 1:Like, don't downplay it. Like like don't downplay it. Like I don't think that you're taking light away from mine. Like I think, if anything, you're you're supporting me with that, by sharing that with me to feel less alone in my loss, to feel less alone in my capabilities of my body. Or you know the decision that I made, you know the decision that I made. You know, if anything it was comforting to know, then you know, then you diminish it. And I still find people kind of even after I put out my episode where I talked about it in the DM saying like no, it's nothing like yours, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. No, it's nothing like yours, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that I shed more tears than you. That means it's bigger.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:I cried, for you know, four years after, every day, and you cried for a week Like it doesn't matter, it's all a loss. You wanted something. It was a part of you, you loved it, even if it was for a short period of time, and you lost it. That's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not about comparing.
Speaker 1:It's not about comparing.
Speaker 2:And grief is different. Everybody handles grief differently and different losses are different. We were talking about this in the DMs around. You know, losing someone to suicide is different than losing someone to a car accident, is different to losing someone to cancer. Yes, the experience of grief is different, but it's not about comparing. It's never about comparing our loss to somebody else's and theirs is worse. So I don't have a right to feel my pain. It's like whatever you're feeling makes sense and is valid. Have a right to feel my pain. It's like whatever you're feeling makes sense and is valid and we just welcome it in. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what anybody else's grief is, and I found that that's a huge thing. When it comes to miscarriage, you know there's this. No, there are a lot of women don't talk about it and there's a lot of women suffering in silence in that, because it's like, well, the baby wasn't born yet and it's like that doesn't matter. That actually doesn't matter. It's a loss. Loss is lost, period, and it's just meeting that, meeting that pain, because that's pain. And everybody does experience grief differently. Everybody does cope with grief differently and I think we're talking to or no, maybe I was talking. I was talking about this in my article around.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the questions people ask is, in a way, sometimes to like justify how much you're grieving, you know. And so I would get the question of oh well, were you too close? And I remember sitting back thinking does is that some kind of metric to validate or invalidate my grief? You know it was, and so you know we had lost a family member four or five months before I lost Bruin, my dog. So that was compounding grief, of like I just went through a huge loss and also sudden, also a shock, that just our family was in so much pain still is with that loss. Um, and there was only a few months later when I lost bruin. So that's like the compounding grief. I yeah, we lost sean in april and I lost bruin in october. So it was so short in between those and massive briefs and I just kind of got like hit again of just like here we go again and you know, for context, you know that was my cousin and he was my age and we grew up together. But because it was my cousin, you know it was well, were you too close? And it's like, yeah, you know we wouldn't talk every day, but we, my family, my extended family, our cousins, were like bonus siblings. We grew up really close and our family really grew up together and we lost him very, very suddenly. And yeah, there's no describing that kind of pain. And you know, people ask me well, were you too close? And it's like, yeah, we were. But what is even close, like, how do you define close? That's also also subjective too, you know, and it doesn't matter. What matters is I'm grieving big time and I agreed there.
Speaker 2:It was very difficult grief, um, losing him and even developing some health things, and I couldn't walk for six weeks after that. It was wild, um, yeah, physically couldn't walk, um, and I had to sit in that pen and that was for me. I remember going to doctors and they couldn't give me an answer and I'm like I know what this is. You know this is grief. You know this is literally grief. And going through such a shock to the system and to the body and and also being away from my family, that was and that's this is another part of grief around. We need to grieve in community. It's not supposed to be done in isolation and you know, with the pandemic preventing that, for me that made grief really hard. I didn't have my people around me. I remember joking to my friend I'm like I want to sit in a stuffy hall eating triangle crappy sandwiches and just like laughing and having inappropriate jokes, like that's what I how, I like to grieve with my family and I and I couldn't do that.
Speaker 2:And so, also, going home to Canada, I'll never forget seeing his bench in Fairy Lake and I'd only just landed and I wasn't expecting to go there yet and my brother and my mom were like let's go for a walk, let's take Molly for a walk at Fairy Lake. And I kind of had this hesitation because I'm like I'm not ready, because I know what's going to happen. I'd only been home for like three, four days after like a huge flight and journey, and I just broke down and very late like seeing his bench and just realized like I, everybody else has had a couple of years to get used to in quotes of him not being around and I haven't. These kinds of things are needed in grief, like just to go to a funeral, to go and have these like ritualistic kind of things that happen to kind of complete the process not complete, because grief is never over and grief is never complete, but to help integrate the process. And so, seeing his bench, I just I was a mess in the middle of fairy lake but again, allowing it to come up and through, I'm not going to wait till I get home because that's like more appropriate. I'm going to just cry sitting on his bench in fairy lake because that's what my body needs to do in this moment.
Speaker 2:So I don't care. I don't care when I cry in public. I am very much in a public crier. If I feel it, it comes out and I don't care what people think or say. Like for me. I'm like I care more about my body and being able to move emotion. So I'm not holding that in and stuffing it in Cause if I try to tap into it later, it's not going to be there in the same way. No, no.
Speaker 1:It's almost like forced tears. That's how I am Sometimes. I try to I'd sometimes try to choke it down Like there was an instant. Yesterday I was cooking dinner, I was listening to music, my husband was on the couch doing whatever and Louis walked in the kitchen and the way that I glanced it looked like Olive they look completely different.
Speaker 1:So there's no way in shape and form where you could ever be like oh, louis looks like Olive right now. They have completely different bodies, their fur is completely different, like they're polar opposites from one another. But I just glanced and she was there and the way God I'm going to get emotional because it just happened yesterday but the way that I felt in that moment was like there was no grief, there was no sadness, it was like pure happiness, like I was so elated like, oh my God, she's here. It was. And then I blinked and it was gone and I was like, oh, it's just Louie. And I had to like I couldn't.
Speaker 1:Because when you talk about the hierarchy of grief and the comparison, I often look at my husband, because we both live with this dog. She's very much a part of our lives. But I would never compare my grief to his. I would never say his is greater or mine's greater, because we both had very different experiences and I had to turn and I was making lasagna and grating cheese. I had to like turn and I'm like just sobbing, grating my cheese and it was, and it wasn't because she wasn't there.
Speaker 1:It was the moment of like pure happiness that I felt, that haven't felt that way in a long time, just just being so excited like oh my god, she's here because you haven't seen her for so long, and then it, and then, and then that after so excited, like oh my god, she's here because you haven't seen her for so long, and then, and then, and then that after moment of like, oh no, wait, she's not here and then that realization of like it all sinking in and and I was just like that was hard, like that and that was like very few moments, like I think about her every day and I do a lot of stuff Like now it's winter here, so, um, and the waterways are kind of open near the house and every winter we would go and find the ducks, like that was my.
Speaker 1:I want ducks so badly, so like if I can't have ducks in my backyard.
Speaker 1:I will find them other places and pretend they are mine. So we would go on like winter walks and go find the ducks and we would sit and watch them and like that's a highlight for me now, like I'm like okay, louie, like are we going to go find the ducks today? You know, olive really would have liked this and Louie often doesn't care, but she was very intrigued by them. But it was just that you just don't know when it's going to come back. And and I think because I don't know, like I feel like my body is already prepping me for a hard week, so week before my period, which is already perfect.
Speaker 2:That's what we want?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're just adding it, we're just layering everything on top, but, like it was like all weekend, my body was like so weird, it was tired, it was lethargic and I was like, is it? There's a thing that?
Speaker 2:yeah, like that's the anniversary effect, that's the thing. That's a very real somatic thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah and that's and I'm like. At one point my husband said something he's like oh, I took what Wednesday off and I try not to think about it ahead of time, like I rather the day just be here than me anticipating the day. My husband's opposite, he anticipates the days. I would rather not know what day it is and then look at the calendar and be like, okay, today is the day.
Speaker 1:Because I don't want to sit all day and stew in it and go back into that moment because that wasn't a great time for me, wasn't a great time leaning up, because that wasn't a great time for me wasn't a great time leaning up and it wasn't a great time after.
Speaker 1:And I really don't want to relive that and and I, you know, spent a lot of time and and work on myself to, you know, be able to move through those emotions and not hold on to everything or blame myself or carry the shame and end the weight of it all.
Speaker 1:Um, but he's like, you know, wednesday, you know I took Wednesday off in case you need help and I'm like, uh, okay, and then, literally like my body just started to shut down and then, like, as the weekend went on, it just got worse and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm pulling into my driveway today after being out and I was like, let's just hope I get like, the majority of the to-do list done, like, but also give yourself lots of space and grace to not get those things done at the same time, but like, very much, my body is reliving all of it and my mind and my heart are just not quite caught up yet and they might not ever be caught up. I think it just might live in there and and and I and I'm okay with that like I'm not, like, oh, I gotta get this out, you know, vigorous exercise or get outside or try to move or shake or whatever. It's interesting to recognize, because every year is different not it's not always the same.
Speaker 1:Like, the first year is obviously the hardest, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the fifth year isn't going to be hard either.
Speaker 2:Like, it could be the hardest year right like it's not.
Speaker 1:It's because I think the first, like two years, I never gave myself that space to grieve that permission to let go, that permission to not blame or hold the shame with it or try to justify all of it, and it took a lot of time and so I think it's it's going to be an interesting week that's it, though right like that's.
Speaker 2:The thing is that grief never ends. There's no, you don't reach an end point. It's forever. It really is forever and it changes. It can change over time. That's what happens. But we don't get rid of grief. We don't heal from grief. That's not what happens. It's we integrate it into our life and we move and grow through life with it, but it's always there and it's going to show up differently, at different times, different seasons, different years. It's always going to show up differently and there's no predicting how that's going to go, and and there's also no judgment in how that goes.
Speaker 2:You know, three years from now, I could have a really hard episode with grief, thinking back to past losses, and it could be. I could just go through a really hard chapter with that, and that's okay. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you're not grieving right. It doesn't mean you didn't grieve properly at the time. It's just.
Speaker 2:That's the nature of grief. It's very unpredictable, and we just have to meet ourselves with so much compassion, compassion, compassion, compassion, and allowing ourselves to be with it in whatever way. We need to be with it, and our needs can also change as a result, too right. So some years you might have different needs from your partner at this time of year versus the next, and that's okay too. It's just about what's alive right now and what needs to happen right now to feel support. That's it. That's the only thing we have to really think about.
Speaker 2:And the anniversary effect is a really real thing. I notice it every time and it doesn't mean just um grief through death, but also living grief, like whatever kind of anniversary dates are on and same with trauma. If anybody's had a traumatic event like car accident or whatever, we can start to feel that leading up to it, either a few weeks leading up to it, a few days leading up to it. But there is this thing called the anniversary effect and it's because the body and the nervous system knows, it knows and it's integrated that into the body of like, ah, when the seasons change and it becomes winter, my body starts to know we're leading up to this anniversary date and it will show. And the body doesn't lie. The body's always going to give us clues and little signals along the way, and the more we can be embodied and connected to our body, we'll pick up on that and then we can start to then apply things that are going to be supportive for us or we know that that's going to happen.
Speaker 2:What supports to be put in place? Do we book that week off work, that day off work? Do we book other things in that are going to bring some lightness to our week? Or do we just change our schedule a little bit to accommodate for that time when it might feel really tender, right? So I feel like we don't think about those things sometimes and we just kind of go on with life and then go through our day and then, oh, here we are. Oh, my gosh, I'm a mess today, you know, yeah, and we haven't really like prepared for that. So there is things that we can do to support ourselves during those anniversary days that can be really hard yeah, yeah, it's, it's and it's.
Speaker 1:I'm happy that you brought up the the body knowing, um, because I had this. It has nothing to do with loss, but for years, anytime we got to about mid-June and the temperature changed, my body would go in high anxiety for like at least a month. I could not. It took me years. I still kind of think I know what it is, but it it happened for years, probably 10-15 years. It started in elementary school and it probably, I want to say it lasted until my 30s. Wow, and I couldn't. I couldn't shake it and I would tell myself every single time like it's not the same. I really don't know what it was from, to be honest. It just started happening and then I just noticed it happened every single summer and it was like it could be the whole summer. I feel that way. It could just be the month of June, I would feel that way maybe into July. But something happened and man did my body remember and haunt me with it.
Speaker 1:And I and I would tell myself, like it's not the same, portia, like it has been years, like what is happening, like it's okay, you're safe, like I still don't know what it was, to be honest, like what triggered my body or what is embedded in there, um, it seems to be gone now and I think that's just probably through other work that I have done. We're just getting things out in the open and and realizing my own things and talking myself through those moments and meditation and stuff. But it stumped me for a long time. I could not shake it, I could not figure it out. I still don't know what it is. I keep saying that.
Speaker 2:but it doesn't happen anymore yeah.
Speaker 2:And it. It's like you can tell yourself I'm safe, but your body doesn't know that yet. No, the body's on a different, it's on a different channel and it doesn't matter how many times you try to tell your body cognition through, cognition of like you're safe, you're safe, you're safe. Your body's like no, I'm not, because it's on a different channel and that's like the body work right, the nervous system work and all that kind of stuff. And I've actually noticed every february, beginning of february, I I have some body stuff come up, but not so much, but it's more so.
Speaker 2:Memories I get memories and I don't know why and it's so interesting. Every year this has happened where I just start thinking and just spontaneous memories, just without any kind of reminder in my external world, right, like there's nothing that I see or I hear, it's just these reminders just come into my mind and then I'll look and I'm like this is leading up to the anniversary of the assault I experienced and I was like every year, every year it happens where these spontaneous memories come up, leading up to it and it's just a reminder that the body knows. Spontaneous memories come up leading up to it and it's just a reminder that the body knows, the body knows it holds on to things, but it also it has that memory Right and so and I don't feel triggered when it happens I just noticed memories come up, but I'm not like flooded, I'm not activated, I'm not anxious, I just noticed the memories come up. It's really interesting and the body just knows.
Speaker 1:It just and it's. And I have to say like I love that I'm able to know that, because I there was many points in my life that I had no idea like I would notice it was happening and I'm like, oh, of course, you're just weird like this just happened to everybody.
Speaker 1:When the season changed, like it, basically that's what I felt. Like I was like, oh, this, this is, I don't know. This is either super normal or super not, and I don't care to learn one or the other and I'm okay with that. But because I just didn't want to know, I didn't want to dive deep, I didn't want to uncover something. And I remember going to my first therapy session and I know I went for my miscarriage and and I looked her straight in the face and I said I don't want to uncover anything. And she just looks at me and she's just like you're, I don't, I can't, I can't remember what she had said. But she's like, basically you won't, it won't happen unless you want it to happen. Like it's not just, like you're gonna say this one thing and then all of a sudden, everything's gonna come forward.
Speaker 1:She's like it doesn't really work that way I was like okay, good because I don't want like session three and then all of a sudden I've uncovered something and then I had no idea or it was suppressed in my memory, and I'm like I just I'm not ready yet for that let me prepare first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it will come up like I've had things come up randomly when I've been in my sessions. I'm like, oh wow, that's so random that that came up and it's from like years and years and years ago and it's your body will know. When it's time, when you have the capacity and resourcing ready to move through something, your body is your biggest ally. It will let you know yeah and it won't bring something that you're not necessarily ready to unpack yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm very grateful that I have that deep connection with my body and myself, that I yeah, that I know um, so sometimes it's good. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I know myself too well, we're not gonna push outside. And then I'm like, oh, portia, stop it. You've done hard things before. It's not being a baby right now. It will be great on the other side and it always is, but it's totally, it's hard and in the in between. But I have to say I absolutely love, love this conversation. I know it was, it was. It can be hard. I know it was a little hard for me.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was holding back tears like three or four times.
Speaker 1:I was like oh gosh, here it comes Like oh God, let's keep smiling and my cheeks will hold them in, um, but uh, I really appreciated this conversation. I I appreciated listening to your story and feeling less alone in my own and knowing that I don't know I think, just knowing that you're there whether we talk about this again two months from now, tomorrow, knowing that you're there and I can just be like hey can we talk about our dogs for a minute.
Speaker 1:You know it just like just simple things like that. So I really, I really appreciate your vulnerability and sharing your story and and holding space for me to kind of talk about mine and and I I really, I really like that. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thanks for having me, thanks for letting me share parts of my stories of grief and it's thanks for just getting this airtime right. Like this is a topic that we don't talk about, and it's. We live in a grief illiterate society, so like, these kind of conversations are really important to normalize it, to open up the conversation, so people can talk about it and feel supported, feel understood and just be expressed and that's what it is. So it's all about.
Speaker 1:And I will say, for those that are listening and wondering about Loretta's article, I will tag it in the show notes so you can check it out as well if you want to dive into that, and I will tag you and everything as well in the show notes. So I'm just taking a deep breath, it's feeling super grateful. So thank you, thank you.
