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THIS IS WE
Navigating Love's Uncharted Waters: Jessica's Tale of Marriage, Coming Out, and True Self Discovery
When love takes a turn into uncharted territories, it can unravel a tapestry of emotions and identities. That's exactly what happens as I, Portia Chambers, sit down with Jessica Crew, whose story of marriage, self-discovery, and resilience captivates and inspires. Jessica's candid recollection of her life with Steve—fraught with love, revelation, and reinvention—offers an intimate glimpse into the world of two people bound by affection yet navigating the complexities of an unexpected truth.
Amidst the backdrop of an amicable divorce and the journey of co-parenting, our conversation traverses the delicate balance of supporting a partner's coming out while dealing with personal feelings of betrayal. Jessica's experience serves as a beacon for anyone wrestling with their partner's infidelity and the intricacies of self-discovery that often accompany such profound life changes. Her bravery in sharing these deeply personal moments pulls back the curtain on the human capacity for empathy and the arduous path toward healing and acceptance.
Closing our heart-to-heart, Jessica imparts her wisdom on embracing life's serendipitous turns and trusting in the choices that resonate with our deepest truths. Her life, an ode to authenticity, illustrates the serenity that comes from living in harmony with one's own spirit. Join us for a narrative that not only offers solace to those walking a similar path but also celebrates the courage it takes to forge ahead, honoring oneself with grace and conviction.
Connect with Jessica @heyjessicafrew
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Join me, portia Chambers, as I sit down with women just like you, sharing moments in their lives that shape them into who they are today Stories of motherhood, betrayal, transformation, love and loss, vulnerable conversations, deep connection and collective healing. Welcome to the this Is we podcast. I am so excited to have our next guest here with us. Jessica Brew is a wife, ex-wife, mom, stepmom and a bold action taker. She has a successful podcast called Husband in Law and that she records with her husband Matt and her ex-husband Steve. Together, they are sharing their stories of love, marriage, coming out, divorce, remarriage and co-parenting to help others know that they are not alone. Welcome, yes, thanks for having me. My pleasure. I'm really excited for us to sit down and chat. We met over Instagram and I always love when that happens, where, just like these, organic kind of relationships form and one person stumbles on the other person's account. So I'm really excited that we get to sit down and have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Likewise. Yeah, as much as social media gets a bad rap, there are so many beautiful things that come from it. I have met so many amazing people and also been able to support so many people, so it brings me joy as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so why don't you start by sharing your story? This is the first time that I'm going to hear about it. I did obviously look on your social media and everything like that, but I think it really reading it is one thing, and hearing it from the person's mouth, from your mouth, is just so, so different. So I'm really excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's another thing I love about podcasting is we get to hear things from people sharing from their own point of view and their own perspective, and it's such a beautiful thing. So I'm excited to be here and share my story today, so most people like to hear. My story starts when I met my ex-husband. So we were in college and I was a vocal performance major at the time and I'm sitting at this choir concert that I had to be at and I was like I do not want to be here, I'm going to leave, I'm nice going to stand up to leave and this large line of women start walking in. They're walking in and I can't get out. So they file into the room in front of me and at the end of this line is this tall, good looking guy and there was no space for him with them. So he came and sat next to me and I was like, all right, I'll stay, this will be fine. And by the end of the night he had my number and he asked me out the next day and we went out every day after that, anytime we could be together. We were together. We met in February and we were married by December. So it was very quick, yes, and it was interesting. You know, like people say, the first year of marriage is the hardest and all of this stuff. We didn't experience that. It was just this easy transition into being together and living together and all of the things, and it was so fun and we had such a good time together.
Speaker 2:That being said, about six months into our marriage, steve was at work Steve is my ex-husband and he and I was getting on our computer for something and we were poor, so we had like no furniture, and I'm laying on the floor Like I can remember the specifics of this day. Now I opened the laptop and all of this pornography starts popping up on our computer and I was like, okay, well, I knew he looked at pornography. This isn't really a surprise. The thing that was surprising, though, is there were no women anywhere. It was all men, and I was like okay, I understand some guys might be into this, but I knew in my gut at that moment that my husband was probably gay, and he came home from work and he could tell. I was like visibly upset or like you know, not okay, and he's like and he knew instantly what was wrong. He's like, okay, let's talk about this. And I was like, well, are you gay? Like I'm not really upset about the fact you're looking at pornography, but are you gay? And he was like, well, no, I'm not gay, I just have. We are raised in a very conservative Christian religion. And he's like I've just always felt it was better to just look at men and not disrespect women. So this is him in extreme denial and like very much can't even say the words to himself that he's gay. And he told me later he's like that was the first time I could say, even in my head, I am gay. Like that he could admit it to himself.
Speaker 2:And we continued forward. We were really happy together. We like I said we had fun together. And a couple of years later he was in counseling for some things he had going on and the counselor was like okay, these things are an issue, but the real issue is you are gay and until you embrace that about yourself, then love yourself, then you're not going to be able to work through these other things you're struggling with.
Speaker 2:And so at that point he came out to me and that was it he. He wasn't ready to come out to anybody else. He was like this isn't the life I'd planned on, this isn't what I'd envisioned for me. I want to stay married, if you want to stay married. And we both felt, you know, like this is what we had planned. We're going to keep going and all of the components were there.
Speaker 2:People at this point are always like, okay, but what about the sex? I always feel like that's the question I get at this point. And it was interesting because, like, we had a really good sex life and I think I always tell people I think because we were so emotionally connected, because I was the only person who knew all of the things about Steve not that I knew everything, but I knew him. He trusted me with something that he could hardly trust himself with, that he wasn't ready to admit to himself, and so we were really close. And I always say I think the emotional connection is what helped us bridge that gap into the bedroom and I would bet at this point Steve would say it was as fulfilling as he now feels in his sex life. And that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2:We were young, we were new to the whole thing, it was great. So anyway, we continued on. We had a baby three years later. So five years into our marriage. We had a little girl and then, a couple of years after that, steve did end up having an affair with a man and I. At that point we tried to make it work, we tried to continue forward and all of these things, but it was just a mess. We were a mess, so we ultimately decided to get divorced and our daughter was almost two she's now 14, which just blows my mind.
Speaker 2:So we're a few years into this journey and in this process I remember thinking, okay, I'm getting divorced. I never thought I would be the person who gets divorced I don't think any of us do. We enter marriage thinking we're in this for life, and so at that point I was like, what do I want now? Like I have to rethink my whole vision of what I thought my life was going to be and get clear on what it is I want now and now I think often we do this and we think like we're going to have this grand vision of, like every detail and it's going to be beautiful. At this point I realize I have no control over the details, but I do have control over how I want to feel, how I hope things feel for my daughter. Like I'm not. I can't control how she feels, but I want to be able to foster a good situation for her.
Speaker 2:And so Steve and I sat down and kind of planned out our divorce. Amongst all of the heaviness that we were in emotionally and all that, we took moments to just kind of get clear on what do we want our divorce to look like. And, you know, laid the groundwork of some things and my ultimate goal was for our daughter to never have to worry about her parents being in the same room together. I had seen I wasn't directly impacted by divorce, but I had friends who were. I saw people at church like I heard things and I was like I don't want my daughter to ever be uncomfortable having her parents together in the same room, except in like normal teenage embarrassment ways. If there is something she wants us at that she wants her parents there, for I want her to know that it's all about her and that she doesn't have to worry about us. So that was the goal and intention as we continued into divorce and I like we even talked about like what we hoped our future partners would look like and how this dynamic might work and all of those things, and really set aside a lot of the pain and hurt Not that we didn't feel it, we went through everything.
Speaker 2:I'm a firm believer you have to feel all the emotions, you need to embrace them, you need to process through that, but to be able to show up in a way that felt right for our daughter. We were able to put a lot of that aside for years and still have so. At this point we are. I've been married 10 years, remarried to another man, matt, and we are 12 years out post-divorce and Steve and I are still really good friends. I always tell people he's like my brother at this point which is always such a weird thing to say, but I'm like I care about him that deeply. If you have a sibling that you love and care about, like that is how I feel about Steve.
Speaker 2:If something happened to him, I would be devastated. It would be like losing somebody in my immediate family and my husband feels the same way about him now, which is like the craziest thing ever. But it's been beautiful to watch how loving Steve has been able to help me love myself more. It's helped me to love other people more and to expand those things we do birthdays together and holidays together and all the things. And also I know that not everybody can have these co-parenting relationships. I always like to put this out here when I'm talking about this. This works for us and also my husband has a very different relationship with his ex-wife and it is what's best for the kids. It does not look like holidays together. We see each other at our kids' sporting events and we will sit close together, but not together. But it's definitely not the same relationship and that's okay, that's beautiful and that's what works for my husband and his kids. Anyway, there's the overview of my story, the quick and dirty version.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. I feel like, oh my gosh, there's so much that's happening but yet it's so beautiful on how it all just managed to kind of work itself out in a way. Obviously yourself and Steve were very much a part of it. It wasn't just like you're like, oh well, just see what happens, but how beautifully it just kind of like just moseyed through in a way. And so a question that I have for you, just kind of going back a little bit in your story when your husband or your ex-husband now first came out to you and said that he was gay, did it ever feel as if after that moment that you guys were carrying this wild, crazy secret and that you just wanted to like scream it out or tell somebody because I know, especially knowing that, and maybe even knowing and you can tell me if I'm wrong at the back of your head going, is this really going to last? Like when is it going to implode? Like when is all of this going to come crumbling down? And so did it feel that way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean it definitely felt like I was carrying a big secret. I am very much an open person. My friends know most of my crap. I keep things to myself as I process through them. But then, as soon as I've like processed through, it is like I know what I want, I know where I'm going, I'm ready to share because I want to make sure my decisions are my own. So, like knowing that I was staying with this man, that I'd made this decision to stay with somebody who's gay, it felt like I was closeted too, and most of the women I talked to who go through this experience feel this of like I feel like I'm in the closet as well because I can't fully share my story.
Speaker 2:Now, yes, it's Steve's truth to share, obviously, and I wanted to respect that, and also it impacts my life, and so there was definitely this. It felt like I was not like hiding something, but definitely felt like I was carrying something that you know. I think this is something I go back to all the time. People are always carrying something. We don't know what it is. People are carrying hard things and even if it doesn't sound like it was hard, it's hard to like know that this is here in the back of your head and you are carrying this idea back there that you know what I'm choosing into a relationship that now has an added like variable that could lead to divorce.
Speaker 2:Like it very much, like I knew I made a decision to stay in a relationship that had a higher likelihood of getting divorced. I I also didn't live in this mindset that we were going to or that it was going to implode, like I was waiting for that moment, because I just don't live that way. I'm like let's enjoy what we have now. If something happens, we will deal with it then.
Speaker 2:And so and I think Steve kind of needed that mindset on my end of things to help him feel prepared to come out and to feel comfortable being himself and to know that I still loved him and cared about him. And he always comes back to me. He's like you're the person who should have been the most mad and angry about this. If anybody could be angry and mad about me coming about, it was you, because it completely changed your life and our relationship and it really helped him know he was okay and that he could love himself as well. So it was like this whole weird juxtaposition of emotions and feelings and all of that, and also felt like such, like you said, kind of a beautiful process to go through. Even when it was hard, it was still something that I was like I knew I was created to be in this situation, to be in this relationship with Steve, and I still firmly feel that way.
Speaker 1:Hmm, I really like that and I think me and you are very similar in the way that we share ourselves with other people.
Speaker 1:I'm very much the same when if, like once, I've mulled it over and have, you know, worked through it and I feel ready, like I'm more than happy to share, like I always say, like I'm a Scorpio and I should be very secretive, but I'm not.
Speaker 1:I am about some things about my life, like the relationship that I have with my husband and my daughter and things like that I'm very secretive about, but these other things that are just me, I'm like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like just just. I'll just continue to say it because I really, I think for me, and I feel like you're probably the same as you, just want people to feel less alone and to know that, yeah, like I went through something very similar or, even though mine's not necessarily the same, some of the emotions that we experienced were similar and I can relate on that end, maybe not necessarily the scenario, so it just yes, I love how you, you know, share and and I think that it's like you're saying, like it's not for everybody to share, like it's not not everybody is called to share their stories and that's okay.
Speaker 2:But yes, I very much my whole life felt by sharing who I am, sharing the things that I'm carrying.
Speaker 2:That might be hard, it allows people space to understand they're not alone, to be like, okay, I can do this, I'm going to be okay, and not like in a toxic positivity way at all, just in a like okay, like we need to feel seen and supported and I feel very grateful that I feel called to do that. I obviously I mean at this point I share our story all over the place. I knew I knew six months after our daughter was born, that this would be something Steven, I shared and at that point I thought we were sharing like how we made this beautiful mixed orientation marriage work and we're like these poster childs for making this work. And now I'm so grateful that's not the story I'm sharing that I get to share a different one of options that we have, options of how we navigate divorce, of how we do co-parenting, and it does help so many people, whether they're in my same situation or not, feel less alone and I'm grateful for that. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I want to talk a little bit about the affair, not the affair itself, yeah, but I maybe not necessarily how it felt, but just when knowing about the affair, finding out the betrayal because I think I feel part of me feels like the betrayal is slightly different than a regular marriage, because you already had this secret and you already decided that we are going to be together, we felt secure in that marriage and everything like that in that relationship, and then to have that like to me that's like a double whammy, like a double whammy, like to slap in the face, like it's two things. It was very much a double-edged sword. So if you were willing to, would you share a little bit about how that betrayal felt for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting because people take this, think of it either the way you just described, where it's like double-edged sword, where you had been so honest and open and now he went behind your back and had an affair with a man and so it is like a double-edged sword and other people are like, oh, it's so much easier because he was gay and you knew he was gay and so you knew this was going to happen. So it's like I get both extremes and I understand them both completely, because I think I felt all of that Like. I think there were moments of feeling all of those things and also I really came back to the fact that I knew so much about where Steve was at with everything and what he was struggling with. I also knew the intent of his heart was never to hurt me Doesn't mean it didn't hurt. But I could somehow in that moment kind of separate myself from it, of realizing this was not about me at all.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was betrayal. Yes, he went against what we outlined for the guidelines, like the boundaries of our marriage and all of that. But also this wasn't about me, about me, and so I really clung on to that, that this wasn't about me. There are aspects that now I had to deal with and process through. But I think that helped me release some of the anger that I felt towards him, still got angry, still felt the things. But I was able to kind of disconnect the two along the line and also see Steve's pain in this, like he, he was a mess, he was like this is, I feel, horrible, I hurt you. I didn't want to hurt you and also this feels like the most right thing I've ever done in my life and he's like I don't know how to process that, like how do I navigate this? And so we navigated it together and and it was interesting and yeah, I mean it had like all of those feelings you talked about, but I don't know it was. It was a weird situation to go through.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, kidding. Was there ever a moment during that time where you thought we could make this work? Or was it very like from the get go? No, like. This is the line and you've crossed it and we're going to have to divorce after this.
Speaker 2:No, we tried to make it work for a while. We stayed together it wasn't long.
Speaker 2:But we were like very committed. We had just moved to a new, like new state, new city a few months before, so and we were still living. Steve did hotel management. We were living in a hotel, like in his hotel, until we got like figured out where we wanted to live and all that. We had just signed a lease and we're moving in like the next week after the affair and I'm like what are we doing? Why are we still moving into this house together? And Steve's like, well, I mean, if we're going to commit, let's commit and let's just move forward.
Speaker 2:And I remember moving into this house thinking I'm never going to live here, Like why am I doing this? But, knowing you know, let's go through the motions, let's see how we feel once we're in the house. And it was just a mess. Steve was still in contact with the man he had the affair with. Not that they were seeing each other, but he would email and text randomly and I was like listen, I can't, I can't stay in this. Like that's not what I want. We talked about an open marriage. That didn't feel right to either of us. I'm like what's the point? Go be with who you want to be with, we can still love each other and have a relationship outside of marriage and find something that actually feels right for us. And so we stayed for a little bit until we were like this just isn't going to work.
Speaker 2:That being said, I we lived in Oklahoma at the time I moved home to Boise, Idaho, where we owned a house, and I was like I'm just going to move back into our house. I have no support here, I don't know anybody, and Steve's like that's fine, I get it. So Pendi and I my daughter and I moved back to Idaho and Steve moved in with this guy. Well, he moved into our house like within a month and Steve kept like referring to possibly moving to Boise and coming back, and I was out on a date Like this is probably five months after we were separated. I texted him one night and I said Steve, you've mentioned moving back to Boise. You've mentioned several things. I don't know if that's just to be close to Pendi. It sounds like, from what you said, part of it might be to come back. For me I'm falling in love with somebody else. If you're serious about this, then you need to move back now, Like you need to make this come now, and he called me the next day and he's like I don't think I cannot be with you, I don't think, like I'm not okay, I don't know what I want. I want to try again. I want to try again and again. We're divorced at this point. And he's like I want to move back to Boise. And I said, okay, then let's give it another try. And I said, but you need to show me you're serious.
Speaker 2:So that day, he quit his job and, within hours, a job in Boise with the same company opened up, and they transferred him to Boise, and he told his boyfriend he moved out within a couple of days, and I was like okay, I drove, I flew out there and drove back with him to Boise, and we dated for like another. We had committed to six months. We're like let's give this six months and see how it goes. I think we made it like four or five, and we were just a mess. We're like this is not. This is not right. This is not good. I'm glad you're here now, though, and everything, and I think it was a process we really needed to go to or go through for Steve and I both to fill up peace with like we may be able to the right decision. Let's go like, let's go do our life.
Speaker 2:And actually in that process he had started hanging out with my now husband. They had a mutual friend who would invite them both to go mountain biking together and they would leave. Their mutual friend lived at my apartment complex, so they would leave from my apartment complex and one night I went up to meet him and like I knew things were done. We had officially said it, but I went up to meet him so Penny could see Steve and everything and we could see all the friends. And Steve introduced me to Matt and he's like this is my friend Matt. He actually went to church with us. I didn't realize that, and that's it. I met Matt. And a week later, when Steven I ended things, I told him I'm like, okay, this is good, I, we're ready, this is done, and also I'm going to marry Matt Frue. And he's like what you like just said hi to him. I'm like I know I think it's crazy too, but I'm going to marry Matt Frue. So, anyway, that's when we ended things.
Speaker 1:Wow, oh my gosh. But I guess there is some sort of comfort there, right? Like you guys have been together for so long you had your daughter and I've been married with my husband for 14 and a half years I could not imagine separating and just being so lost, like I know, like I probably would be fine. I'm going to say this right now, put it on the record, but my husband would literally be lost. Like I went away for one night and he's texting me and every time he does like text me, like this is what I'm doing, and they'd be like, okay, get back to what you were doing. I know you're there for a reason, because I had like a solo trip, just wanted to escape, not be hounded by anybody. He's like just texting me all night and I'm like, oh yeah, he would be so lost.
Speaker 1:But then that same feeling would be like, oh, I just, I just want to go back to that safety. I just want to go back to the security. It's this idea that we don't have to do a lot to make it work, in the sense that we already know what each other are capable of doing, our strengths and our weaknesses, and we just mash. So I can. I can really understand that. That going back and forth, especially having a young child, then moving back to a town where you you don't know anybody, like that's super isolating in itself, like you just want that safety and that security there. So and that kind of brings me to my next question when you did move, was this information public? Like did friends know that this was happening? Was it just I'm keeping this a secret until we fully know, or was it exposed? And how did that feel?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So before we officially decided to separate and get divorced, I told Steve I'm like you need some space, like we both need some space to process through some big feelings here. And I'm like, but nobody knew. One Steve's mom knew he was gay, that's it. Like Steve's mom was aware that he was gay and a few of our friends, like one couple I think, knew. And I was like I, we need space but we don't have like a ton of time because otherwise we have to tell people. So we either, you know, make the decision now and just separate or we hold off as long as possible telling people, because Steve really still wasn't sure he wanted to tell anybody he was gay. And so I went and stayed with some friends for like two weeks, which was pushing it. We didn't do things like that, like me being gone from Steve for two weeks wasn't normal. So I went and stayed with some friends for two weeks at that point that they knew and at the end of those two weeks I said, okay, steve, we're getting divorced. Like I have people, I have one of the pod things coming to pack my stuff into when I get home. We have to tell people why, like this is the time to just be honest and own this.
Speaker 2:And he was so scared, like so scared, and so he had. He called his family, I called my family, I called my parents and I'm like, hey, they lived in Boise and I'm like I'm going to be moving to Boise on Monday I'll be there like in a few days and I said Steve and I are getting divorced, steve's gay, and I'm basically just very like unemotionally laying this all out there and my parents are like what the hell? I mean so quiet on the other end of the phone. And then, of course, questions started coming later on. But it was a big process of catching our family up. We had been through this for seven years of navigating this whole thing and understanding ourselves within it, and now we had to kind of not only deal with all of the heartache and emotions that came up with getting divorced and Steve coming out, which is a big deal. Especially 10, 12 years ago it felt like even a bigger deal. And so now he's navigating that, I'm navigating this and we're trying to catch our families up on all of these things. And you know, steve's family conservative Christian is like, well, you just need to do this and it'll be fine, you need to do this and it'll go away. And Steve's like you have no idea how much I've tried and it makes me emotional still thinking about Steve trying to get rid of the gay and I always like was of the mindset this isn't something that's going away, you're not going to get rid of the fact you're gay and he still lived in that I think up until kind of us getting divorced of oh, I can get rid of this, it's something I can. I can be better, I can do more, I can be a better person than this old God will heal me type thing. And his family was still kind of there and so it was hard to be like we had to like work through that with them of this isn't going away. We've Steve's tried everything and nor does he need to make this go away. This is a beautiful part of who he is. He needs to be loved and accepted for this part and not feel like it's something he needs to change. So it took Steve time to get through that, but yeah, it was it's. It has been an interesting process of coming out to friends and family and very much feels like I know I did not come out to people. I do not want to minimize how, like what a big step that is, but also there was a process of coming out and owning that story as well.
Speaker 2:On my end of things and supporting Steve as he did that I mean I he was. He was not okay, like he was dealing with suicidal thoughts, and I slept with my phone on well into my second marriage, like through the night of Steve. My phone is always on. If you need something, call me, and there were a handful of times he would call in the middle of the night and be like I just want to be done. You and Penny would be better off without me and just talking to him. You know, please, please, go home, please.
Speaker 2:And most during this time he had a partner. But please go get in bed next year, partner, talk to them. Call me first thing in the morning. If I do not hear from you by a certain time I will be sending somebody to your house, because at that point we weren't living in the same town and so it's. It was a lot to process through, just on our end and then helping family and friends. But Steve did come out and I think it was good that he just like we just embraced it together at the same time, so that he had somebody on his side that he knew had his back the whole time too. So it was a crazy experience.
Speaker 1:I'm sure it felt nice to have the person by your side. In other people's eyes would be the person that would never be on your side. He's so far away, saying oh, don't even come near me, don't even talk to me, I don't even want to be in the same room as you, and here you are the biggest supporter of all, and like, how amazing is that to be like as you, as an individual, to be able to hold that space for him every single time. I couldn't even imagine the conversations that were had and and what was said on the other end of the phone. Like, never mind what you have to say, I'm sure, I'm sure you heard some wicked words and some very amazing and inspiring words too, and it kind of makes me emotional, because sometimes in those incidents you don't you don't really know who is on the other side of the phone. You could you have this idea of like, oh, this is my best friend, or this is my mother, my aunt, and you're telling them this, this deep secret that not only is involves you but involves Steve and your daughter, and it's not just one thing, it's two things. And then to tell somebody something like that and to not hear what you're expecting. I couldn't. I couldn't even imagine what, what would be going through both of your minds and hearts, like it just it's. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Parts of me are sometimes speechless, because I, in these instances, is really when you get to see who your true friends are and your family and who's willing to kind of be by your side the entire way and really be by your side, and who was just there to kind of watch it all unfold. Right Like I had some Yep. I went through something and I had to tell people and and I remember a friend saying something and I was like I think my jaw hit the table and I was like, are you serious? Did you just wait for this conversation to happen so you could watch it all unfold and then leave me here in the dust with your words, like I was? I was mortified by this person. I thought. I thought we've had great friendship for years and years and years and this is how you left me. I was like, wow, okay, like yeah.
Speaker 2:Going through hard things. Yeah, going through hard things will definitely let you know who your true people are and understand, too, that usually it doesn't need to be a lot of people. There's just a few key people you need in your life to have your back and to support you. Not fix anything, not change anything, yeah, but just to support you on what you feel is right for your life. And that's really those are the people. Stephen and I clung to, the people that could stand behind us and support us in our relationship moving forward. That's really who we grasped to, like, we're drawn to and we're like okay, these are our people, these are who we need and it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure how I don't. I usually don't bring up children in any of these conversations. How was your daughter through all of this? Because she was two at the time when everything was kind of unfolding, and that's a year, you know, like. I have a daughter. She's 16 now, but that's a year where they're observant and, you know, quietly observing the world around them, and so how was that with your daughter and everything?
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, kids don't? They know something's changed. They can feel those shifts. She's a very tender, sensitive soul and so she would like I mean like if I was crying or something and she would come up and just snuggle me, you know, and like little kids just have that little soft spot. And there are moments of her acting out because I'm sure she was feeling things and didn't know what to do or what was going on. But for the most part she did really well with the transition. I think she was young enough that it it's just kind of been her reality. After Matt and I got married.
Speaker 2:She definitely had a harder time like transitioning with that. Even though she didn't, she remembered bits and pieces of Steven and I being together. Like there are things she brings up I'm like how in the world do you have any memory of that? So she saw little pieces. That wasn't her normal or her lived experience and so but she would still like sometimes say you know, I just wish it could be you and I and daddy, and I'm like I know, honey, I do too. And we can be sad about that and mourn that and also understand that's not what's best for us anymore. This is a better situation. And so I mean, like any any kid mourning their parents not being together, she had to go through that process. It wasn't immediate. I felt like it was later on, couple years after, you know, when again I got remarried and we're in this new life and it's a that's a huge change. That was harder for me. I lost myself more in that process than going to divorce. So that was, it was hard.
Speaker 2:But, and I mean like I think she's just come to realize how much love there is in her life and amongst her family. She has so many grandparents and aunts, uncles and cousins that just adore her. And then she has this whole flock of gay men I just called them a flock, yes, but of gay men in Boise that know her around town and I think it's the cutest thing ever when we're at the store and these guys are like and they get excited to see her and she's excited to see them and I'm like she has all these people looking out for her and she has seen the other side of co-parenting that's really hard and heavy and how that impacts her step-siblings and how that impacts her stepdad and myself, and so I think she understands that she's lucky and feels gratitude that Steve and I can get along and his new boyfriend, jaylin, and all of us like can get along, and I really just hope that she understands she gets to love herself. Whatever her path in life looks like, she gets to do what feels right for her. I always hope these are the things she's going to take away from this and also be a voice for people who you know, whatever their lived experiences, whether they're the same as her or not. Like that we get to be a voice for them and love them as well and help them feel safe being who they are.
Speaker 2:I know that there are lots of kids that confide in her with different things because people know she just owns her life.
Speaker 2:She's got a gay dad.
Speaker 2:She has technically three dads at this point that love and support her and she's always been proud of that.
Speaker 2:I remember her going to school and she's little for like donuts with dads or whatever, and she would invite Steve and Matt and which we always make clear too, like you don't have to invite them both, you don't like nobody's going to feel bad, you get to take who you want to take, type thing, and but she would like walk down the hall holding both these guys hands and Steve and Matt were both confident enough to never say anything or like Matt didn't feel the need to say well, I'm not his partner or whatever. Right, we're Penny's dads and we're here and we love her and that's all that matters. So I mean, I'm sure we're doing damage along the way because that we're parents, we all, you know, we all mess up our kids in our own unique way, but she's good and she was. I mean, I always thought that she was just a blessing. Going through that process of having this little person that loved us and that was so gentle with us, I would say, during that process oh that's so beautiful, that's so nice.
Speaker 1:I love what you say. We all just mess them up anyways. I say that to my husband all the time. I'm like we try our best, like this is all we can do. Like I was so young when I had my daughter. I said I didn't even know I was messing her up. At that time I said I didn't become fully self aware until my mid 30s, like I'm like she was already 15 by then. Like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:They're going to be fine. Yeah, they're going to figure things out and we all have to go through that process of learning. Oh, my parents didn't do this perfectly and my parents weren't perfect, and that's a beautiful thing to learn and to see of like. No, we're not right about everything. I want you to do what feels right for you and I'm going to do my best to support you along the way with that.
Speaker 1:And I love how you guys were very like, honest and open.
Speaker 1:I think that's so important with children because they're watching, they see, and there was a time where my husband like, I'm very honest with my daughter and open with my daughter, but there was a time where we couldn't be for my husband.
Speaker 1:We were going through something and not in our relationship, it was something that had to do with me and we didn't have all the answers. So it was like how can we can't be open and honest yet. But I remember when we told her after that, she immediately thought that I was dying, like she thought I was sick and all of these things like. And that's when I was like my eyes got really wide open, where I was like okay, maybe I just need to be honest, even when I don't know the answers or don't have the full story, because clearly she spent a month and a half thinking that I'm dying and I was totally unaware of that, like no one knew that, because we were so immersed in what was going on in our lives that we were just like okay, she's fine, she doesn't even notice what's going on.
Speaker 1:They know, they know, she didn't quite have it. She's closed. I wasn't dying, yeah, she kind of knew and I was like, okay, now I have to be really really honest moving forward.
Speaker 2:I think that's like something that we convince ourselves like, oh, if our kids, we don't have to tell them everything, they don't need to know this right now, they don't know anything's going on. I'm like your kids know something is going on, just as like you know something's going on in your relationships with whoever Like, you're like, oh, something was off there. Our kids know that, and the more we tell them like not that we have to tell them everything, but we say like, listen, there is something going on, it's nothing to do with you and I'm okay, or whatever you know, on a need to know basis, they give them that piece of like okay, okay, yeah, my mom's, you know, wherever we're at, people are always like I don't?
Speaker 2:we're not going to tell them this or that, or they're working to divorce them, like your kids know, like just be honest with them at an age appropriate level. So yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 1:It's so, so true. I was going to add something I can't remember. Sorry I forgot. That's fine, look at the time. Oh, okay, I did have one more question for you. I actually have two. Yeah, um, you mentioned right before we were, I guess, while you were talking about your daughter Penny and kind of going through the transition of divorce and and everything, you talked about the transition of getting remarried and I don't know if that's opening a big box of worms. Um, but I maybe just touch on that a lot, a little bit, because I think I feel like that is something that when you brought that, I was like I didn't even consider that. I thought that was the easy part, and, man, was I wrong?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I think I mean this is after getting remarried. I was like this is why the divorce rate is even higher the second time around. Because, first and foremost, you know you can do it without this other person. You've already which we all know that on some level. But like, you've lived it and so there's that. But also, blending families is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and it was a whole new level of humble I've never experienced, um, and I think you realize parts of you that haven't healed. My husband definitely did. He, he spiraled. Like our wedding day I was like whoa. Like on our honeymoon I was like something is very different, things are not okay, like what just happened. And I remember the last day of our honeymoon just balling like this is something that has shifted, and it took him years to pull himself out of that, um, and for me to not make it about me, which I knew how to do.
Speaker 2:I was married to a gay man for seven years. Like I knew how to not make this about me, but I did for a long time and that's when I lost myself and that's when things were so hard and horrible in our family. Um, I left him a year in, like I was, like I am done, I can't do this anymore, and I came back. He didn't really want me back in the house and I was like I'm coming in with a new energy, with a new outlook. And that was when I decided, like I know how to show up for myself in a relationship. And this is a relationship like I knew from day one, the minute I met this man, which is just so nuts to me, that we would be good together and I'm going to trust what that Jessica knew in this moment. And I knew it was right for me to try it again, but with the idea that I am showing up for myself and my daughter first.
Speaker 2:I was giving up myself and I was giving up my relationship with my daughter to show up for everybody else, to try to make things good, and I'm like that's not how it's going to work anymore. Um, not that I didn't show up for Matt and his kids, but there were boundaries and like I'd never experienced anything like that and I am. Things that I knew made everybody uncomfortable, but I knew we're right and they shifted our relationship drastically over time and gave a space for Matt to feel safe and ultimately share with me why he's doing these things and filling these things. And we were able to work through it and, man, I remember Steve also being like Jessica. It took us seven years to get to a place where we could be really honest with each other and we got divorced.
Speaker 2:So, like, remember that this takes time to like work through this and I was like, okay, okay, um, and we have, and we are so happy and, like I, it's like what I thought it would be in the beginning. Um, but yeah, anybody who tells you or tries to make it sound like blending family is as easy and whatever it's, it's a whole nother mess. Um, I would do it again in heartbeat, but it's, it's been a journey Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went. Honestly I wouldn't have expected that. I would have just thought like, oh, happily ever after, like that would have, it would have been just perfect.
Speaker 2:But I was wrong. We learned all these things from our first relationship. We're older, we're wiser. No, total bunch of crap.
Speaker 1:It's true, and and marriage is hard. Like I, like my husband, my husband and I met. I was 18 and he was 27 when we met and he lived nine extra years longer than I had and knew kind of what he wanted in life and knew all of these things and I was like blah blah, blah, blah blah, I'm 18. Like I can't even legally drink here. Like I'm just like life is good, I'm just going to go to school. And then I ended up pregnant right after my 19th birthday and I was like okay, my life is going to look a lot different now and but at the time I had no idea what I wanted and everything. And it was like I was so grateful now that he really understood our age gap and how important it was for me to experience a lot of the things that I needed to experience in my twenties. I don't think I I did any of the things because I was like.
Speaker 1:I can't go and get drunk for three days and then show up at my house and expect to be a parent again, like, oh my God, this is insanity. I don't want to do that anymore either. No, um, but I was so. I'm so grateful that he got and gave me the space, like, if you need to go out and be with friends, go out and be with friends, because I still very much need to grow up and understand.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't. It wasn't like our marriage was always great and and it was rocky, but I don't think we actually like as my hands come together for those that can't see me um, intertwine. It wasn't until, like maybe four years ago, where it finally just clicked and we started to kind of move in unison and it became less of a given take or, you know, tit for tat, as my husband would say. Um, it became more of of a 50, 50, of a relationship like that, and so it's. It's, it's hard and it's not. It's. Sometimes it feels easy and there can be years where it feels really, really easy, and then there's times where it just you feel like you're just constantly running in the same spot and you're like I'm I'm not going anywhere and I don't understand why. Um, but yeah, like I, I look back and like, oh my gosh, how, how did we make?
Speaker 2:this all work. How did we make it?
Speaker 1:But then it's so funny because I'll talk to him about it and he'd be like I didn't see it that way. I thought it would just be like I'm like what you thought? It was pure bliss the whole time I'm here. I'm like what is going on half the time? Um, but it was, it was just very interesting and it was just.
Speaker 1:It took, it took time for us to kind of find our groove and and to be very, very honest with one another. We never had that running start where a lot of relationships are. You know, people might be together for a little bit of time before starting a family and when you toss a child in there, man, yeah, man, does all of your childhood trauma and then some rise up to the surface. And if you haven't even had discussions about how you want to raise your child or anything like that before, like it's, it's insanity, it is, it is a lot, it's a lot, and I can see how, you know, after people have children, things change. Like I can, I can see that, and so it's, it's interesting. Like marriage is hard, it's never easy, it's constant work, but it's so worth it, I think, like I couldn't imagine being alone and and doing this life alone and and so I'm grateful that he's here and he does it with me and supports me and I know my antics and loves me regardless.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the key to marriage is realizing we've all got our crap. We've all got stuff that we know the other person finds annoying or whatever, but they tolerate ours and we tolerate theirs. And not that you tolerate horrible, anything really bad, but like the little stupid things we do that it's like oh man, that's.
Speaker 1:Roars, open the cabinet doors Like why? Why can't you just put this away?
Speaker 2:Like all the things you laugh about but are real. They're real things, but also they're. They're only made horrible when there's other issues underlying, like underneath that, and I think that's when it's like when you feel like you want to divorce your husband over the toothpaste. It's like, oh, there's more going on here. Oh, yes, we need to discuss some other things it's not the toothpaste.
Speaker 1:No, no. So my last question for you, and I ask everybody this is there one piece of advice that you would like to leave here with everybody, and it doesn't necessarily have to be about what we talked about. It could just be life advice in general, or just like a quote that you take with you every single day. Yeah, let us know.
Speaker 2:My whole thing is trust what is right for you. Be do the things that are right for you. Say the things that are right for you. There's a learning process in that and it happens like you're talking about, like it happens again and again throughout life. It's not just this one moment of getting to know yourself, but when life shifts and pivots in ways we don't expect, we get to know ourselves differently and we have to take that time. But trust what is right for you. It might seem like the craziest thought you have ever had and it might be the most right thing you've ever done. Say, married to a gay man is the craziest thing to ever think of doing, and yet I know it was the most right thing for me in my life. And so I think when we can trust those things fully, we get to show up in confidence and love for ourselves in ways that we never expected, and it brings peace and joy in ways we never expected.
Speaker 1:I love that. I'm with that. I'm here for that. That's a motto I live by. My mom has said that to me for years, for years. I'm so glad it's the best piece of advice Put you back in the driver's seat, that's for sure. 100%, well, thank you so much, jessica, for sharing your story. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
