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The Unspoken Journey of Self-Preservation Amidst Love's Trials
When love and personal well-being clash, the heart faces a daunting challenge. Join me, Portia Chambers, as I sit down with Casey, a compassionate psychotherapist, who shares her profound and deeply personal account of facing her partner's mental health crisis. Together, we unravel the complexities of supporting a loved one while grappling with the heavy decision to prioritize self-care. Casey's vulnerability in discussing her journey through her marriage's deterioration serves as a beacon of understanding for anyone who has felt alone in the battle between love and self-preservation.
As we navigate the delicate balance of helping a partner and letting go, Casey's insights illuminate the often untold emotional cost. Her story is one of transformation, as she moves from confronting systemic failures and personal frustration to finding her voice and purpose in the world of therapy. We traverse the landscape of healing after leaving a marriage, touching on the significance of therapy, the struggle with feelings of failure, and the redefinition of personal identity. This episode is not just a discussion but a collective healing experience, embracing the strength found in self-compassion and the compassion we extend to others.
Through our conversation, we celebrate the personal growth and gratitude that emerge from life's most challenging episodes. Casey's narrative evolves into a testament to the power of self-discovery and the importance of nurturing our personal growth for the betterment of ourselves and those around us. We reflect on the empowerment that comes from self-investment, understanding our truth, and the positive changes it can bring to our relationships. This episode is an intimate exchange, highlighting the transformative impact of compassion and the courage to continuously evolve amidst life's trials.
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Join me, portia Chambers, as I sit down with women just like you, sharing moments in their lives that shape them into who they are today Stories of motherhood, betrayal, transformation, love and loss, vulnerable conversations, deep connection and collective healing. Welcome to the this Is we podcast. I am so excited to have our next guest here with us. Casey has over a decade of clinical practice, working with thousands of clients worldwide. She is a licensed psychotherapist, a master certified consciousness coach and a certified clinical hypnotherapist. Beyond that, her intuition and healing abilities allow her to feel clients' unique energy patterns, adapting tools and techniques to support optimal organization for the precise needs of each soul. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me, Portia. It's a pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so excited to listen to your story. I have only heard the Cole's notes, the small version of it, so I'm really, really excited to dive in a little bit more and just listen. So let's start. So let's start from the beginning. The beginning of kind of my healing journey do you mean how I got into this, or the beginning of life when you were born? No, Tell me. I want to start with the relationship that you had with your husband.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so I had really an amazing relationship with my husband. We were kind of high school sweethearts. I met him when I was in high school. He was just a few years older and we really had a beautiful connection and we ended up getting married. I ended up getting married really young, which I hadn't necessarily planned or expected, but just that's the way that everything flowed and it really was a beautiful relationship, really deeply connected, a deep friendship that we had and just a special unique bond, a soulmate in a way. Right that we really came together and shared this wonderful life.
Speaker 2:And then all of those things changed eventually after, again, we were together for 12 years. So towards the end of that for me which was really hard was it really kind of went from this idyllic relationship and of course I wasn't super conscious about myself at that time but as much as I did know about myself it all flowed and went really beautifully for me. But it shifted toward the last couple of years. We started to have some struggles and I think me processing all of that was just really hard because there was such a departure. It was almost like two different versions of our marriage, not this building where you could see that there was a decline in any way, but it really felt like a sudden shift. That was really hard to metabolize for me.
Speaker 1:Can you open up about what that subtle shift was?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really was. My husband started to really struggle with just fragmentation of his mental health. It really probably he had struggled with it in subtle ways along the way, but nothing in the way that interfered with our marriage. I think it had always been a bonding thing actually where I could get into this role of helping or being supportive or listening or just being in that position and he really started to fragment and struggle with his mental health pretty severely, a lot of pretty severe issues with his mental health toward the end of the relationship, maybe the last couple of years, not having dealt with that, really not having been exposed to that before in my own life.
Speaker 2:I of course did the best that I could and I wasn't a therapist at the time and I didn't again know so much about myself, but I noticed what my natural pattern was was to go into really trying to organize all of my energy around him and this struggle that he was having and pour myself into him and probably doing some rescuing or some mothering or some over functioning, just to try to make sure that he could be well, get the help that he needed, and I didn't even necessarily know how to source that.
Speaker 2:He was struggling a lot with some suicide ideation and he had come from a family of origin where his father had taken his own life, and so there was a lot of stigma in that family system and his family system just about mental health and not a lot of acceptance around it, even though they had or a lot of healing around it, even though they had been through this real tragedy in their own life, and so he hadn't really kind of had the container to heal himself.
Speaker 2:And then when he started to struggle in this way himself, pretty, you know, seriously it, there again there wasn't a lot of support, there wasn't a lot from him. Really, he really wanted to deal with a lot of that on his own and so, and keep it private, keep it separate from the family, not have anybody know. It's like, okay, I'll talk to you about it. And so you can see that this natural way of me stepping into that role of of rescuing him and feeling responsible right for his life, because I kind of had to do all of that on my own. Of course I didn't have to, but that's the way that it was set up it's dynamic between us at the time.
Speaker 2:That's, you know, I didn't know any better and I was just trying to honor his wishes, and so that is how that happened. And so it was a lot, you know, couple of years or maybe a year of really trying to dive in and deal with that and really being in isolation about it, because he wasn't really emotionally available during that time, and he was asking for me that I would not not talk to anybody about it, that I would keep this sort of private for him, and so and so I did, you know, not really knowing any better, but the burden and the pressure that I felt on myself was really pretty incredible at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no kidding, you're holding.
Speaker 1:you're holding somebody else's secret Right and then you're trying to walk around every day being like I'm okay, I'm okay, even carrying and you're carrying this huge weight on your shoulders every single day. It's just that's wild to believe. And so it's big. It is big and I wanted to ask, like how, how did it feel being in a relationship and having somebody you know say like you, can you hold that secret for me, at the same time as you're trying to help them? Knowing, maybe in the back of your mind, it's like if I just told one more person, I might be a little bit more available to you, I might have a little bit more capacity to take this on. So you know we're talking a lot about him. But how did this, you know, how did this all make you feel in those moments?
Speaker 2:Well, my instinct at the time was just to honor what he was asking for. And so it's interesting how, you know, secrets become pervasive, right, and how I absorb that, even though it maybe not wasn't my identity or the way that I would have necessarily handled things, I absorb that identity and, you know, obviously I was, I was willing to do so because I thought, you know, that's what was necessary. I learned, of course, that that wasn't, you know, valuable for me, but, again, it was this incredible burden and pressure that I felt that I really just tried to manage on my own. That, all to say, we did reach out. He agreed that, if you know, he would get help, and so, you know, we were consulting a doctor and he was trying to get the help that he needed, but in all other terms, it was very private and secretive, right. And so, yeah, I noticed that my tendency, right, was just to fall into like, okay, well, I can do this and let me just, you know, sweep in and over function and all of these ways and a lot of those mothering tendencies came forward for me that hadn't necessarily been obvious to me so much.
Speaker 2:You know that I would go into this kind of drama triangle rescuer, saver, fixer, healer, you know dynamic. That, of course, wasn't necessarily rescuing anybody from anything. It was just getting me more and more depleted. And the weight of carrying that secret and the pressure, I think initially, and maybe for a year worth of time, I was able to keep myself pretty busy with all of that. So I wasn't even able to really absorb the weight that it had on me and I knew it had a weight, but I wasn't seeing that because it was like, okay, well, I have something to do here, right, and I think I just got distracted with that and because I was just so over focused on him and his well-being and his needs that mine atrophied, my health atrophied, my I lost a ton of weight, I just and so people around me could start to sense because all of my energy was going into this thing and trying to manage it.
Speaker 2:But I was really becoming quite depleted. And you know, I mean there is like you know, we can do that to a certain degree and then we start burning from it, right, because it's a lot, a lot to manage. So and we hadn't updated those systems, right, there wasn't significant process being made in terms of his well-being. It was really, you know, he was kind of haphazardly seeking help and so I, you know, was trying even harder, and that just made me try harder and try even harder, and so I got focused on what to do, but eventually you burn out because there's just the there's no update of the system.
Speaker 2:I think that's what I started to say. Is we never renegotiated what that would be like? Okay, well, maybe we better tell some more people, or maybe would be, you know, like that just, and I kind of was in again, you know, like the only one with the emotional or mental bandwidth to process those things, and I at that time I hadn't sought help for myself yet, and so I was still holding this and looking back, I wish that I would have, you know, gotten my own therapist and, instead of being so focused on him doing all of those things, I you know should have sought counsel myself, even if it was, you know, professional counsel, rather than supportive family or friends or whatnot. So so I hope that answers your question.
Speaker 2:But that's I don't know what happened. So, with the system not updating, I just kind of continued. Probably, you know, would have been into perpetuity, had, you know, things not gotten worse or had it not gotten critical that we needed to shift things, you know, which was really done by force, and I just wasn't conscious enough or didn't know enough about it to know better.
Speaker 1:I did want to ask how was it? How did it feel being in? Because you know, now you're into this a year into you know, holding your husband secret and trying to help and trying to be that support system for him. Was there a point where you were like I really am in a one sided relationship that? Did he have space for you during that time? Or was it really just everything was focused on him and his needs?
Speaker 2:He didn't have a lot of space. No, yeah, no, he did not have a lot of space. So, yeah, it really was up to me to kind of create that space for myself if I needed it, and initially I didn't. I mean, it was probably a year's time that I really didn't do that, until it was kind of forced upon me that there was no other option or I was kind of reaching, you know, things were unmanageable, right and so no, there wasn't a lot really. Our marriage started like he deteriorated, but our marriage deteriorated at that same time and there wasn't a lot of a container for what was going on with me or what was going on in the marriage and in my own space as well. I really wasn't focused on the marriage either. I was hyper-focused on him, and you know I again, you know you can look back and want to do things differently and put more, but those two kind of declined at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would think it'd be hard to kind of keep up with both, and I think people often forget, like a marriage is its own relationship. Like I've been married for oh my god be 15 years in August. And so people kind of always look at me like, and I got married young and it wasn't easy, like it wasn't blissful, and this honeymoon period, our entire marriage, like it took a lot of time and a lot of dedication too, and I think we've had our own ups and downs where we forgot about our marriage and only focused on ourselves and then we came back to our marriage. So, yeah, I can really see how that would slowly start to just kind of crumble, probably without even noticing, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, without even noticing, and you know, I mean, it is like the marriage itself is a consciousness, it's its own relationship, it's consciousness. And if one or both of you is not showing up like fully conscious in that, then it's impossible and neither one of us were for different reasons right, but neither one of us really were. And so then you shift into some of these dynamics where you know he's certainly not able to tend to himself, so he certainly can't tend to me or the marriage, and I am tending to him, and so I kind of get into this like hierarchical, like again mothering zone of just trying to make sure that he's okay, and that's a relationship killer too.
Speaker 2:So, there's just more and more distance and him, you know, being a verse to that or being a verse to help, you know, in general, really cause things to decline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you? Yeah, did you ever find yourself resentful Like at some point, being like why are you doing this to me?
Speaker 2:You know it's an interesting people ask questions like this and I don't know if anyone's ever asked me specifically about resentment. I don't think I did. Honestly, I was so, so concerned about him and I knew that it wasn't his fault.
Speaker 2:You know, I was frustrated. I think that, to maybe differentiate that a little bit, I think I was frustrated and I'm not sure if it was at the time. I don't remember feeling really frustrated with him specifically, but just that that there was a lack of investment in trying to be well. What I learned about myself at that time is how I organize around problems and when there is a problem, what I recognize is I just dive in, I do everything. You know, I kind of get this hyper mobilized energy where I'm doing, doing, doing it's like I'll do whatever it takes, and I'm energized. At least at that time I wasn't in general I typically am.
Speaker 2:And he was in this other mode where he was really freezing, he was shutting down, he was numbing. You know he was already feeling numb, right, but you know, numbing himself in other ways and just so we were kind of in this extreme polarity right of me being hyper mobilized. And so, looking back, I certainly feel frustrated with that energy of just like you know, company, like you just want to shake them like, try what we do here, just show up, you know, do the thing. And the funny thing about him is that he actually was so like that until he wasn't, and so it was such an incredible departure. Everything that I witnessed in him was such a departure from how I had known him that that was really hard to reconcile. And so I wouldn't say I felt resentful, but probably frustrated, and I don't even know at the time because I just so went into this mode.
Speaker 2:And I was so concerned for him and I also really didn't. I knew it wasn't his fault that he was experiencing this, that he was having this pain. I mean, it was real and it was valid and there were reasons for that and I, yeah, I wished that he would. I mean, I always say, a problem is not, a problem is how you organize yourself around. The problem and the way he was organizing himself. You know, for better or for worse, his fault or not was just not to not to make initiative right into change, like he was just, you know, kind of stuck there.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, and that kind of brings me to my next question. I know that when we did chat in the DMs that you, you did leave your husband, and so I want to talk about that a little bit. And in what moment did you realize that he was no longer going to help himself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so after about a year, so probably the last two years is, you know, when he really struggled in this way and then where there was this effort to include people so probably after about a year and you know that's such a rough estimate, but that's where I there was even more of a decline. There was even more of a just obstinance on his part, right to do anything different for himself or to change, and so it became apparent to me that I really needed to include other people community, family. I needed to reach out, I needed to get help for us, our marriage, I needed to get help for myself. And so when I started doing all of those things, then it became more apparent, because now I guess our baseline was a little different. It wasn't just me trying to do him trying to do it on his own, me trying to do it with him and not really knowing what we're doing. Now we're actually making like real concerted effort in a meaningful way to include people, to get professional, even more professional help, to ask for support from friends and family, to, you know, notify his, his system, about what was going on. And there just seems to be more of a resistance at that time when and I think again, it wasn't intentional, it was totally unconscious on his part, but just there was no real leaning into it. And so our marriage really didn't resemble marriage anymore. Again, it was a lot of me over functioning. It was a lot of him not showing up when we tried going to couples counseling and like sometimes he'd come, sometimes he wouldn't, he'd be very resistant, totally in denial to like he still was not in acceptance.
Speaker 2:I was the one, ultimately, that made the decision. Like you know, I need to like include family and friends in this. I need to have them understand, I need their support and this is bigger than me. I, you know, this is not, this is over my, over my level of understanding or ability to manage right, like it's, it's not something I can do on my own. And so when I included others and there was still this resistance, there was still and we were getting help on our own it just didn't resemble a marriage anymore and he seemed to be.
Speaker 2:Of course, I'm sure he was not, but content to, you know, decline or remain where he was, and just so resistant to it that I had. Eventually I had to say you know what is left here, what is left here for us, for me, and if he's resistant to me, and now there's this greater wedge between us. You know what power do I have here? There's not a lot of choices that I have, but I don't have to live this way because again, and probably in that last year is when I declined even more myself physically, emotionally, mentally, right, where people could really notice like I was just kind of losing a ton of weight, I was really stressed.
Speaker 2:It was hard for me to focus. I would, you know, break down. I really tried to keep the secret for a long time and doing that is just so painful, right, it's having to carry that is just so hard. So eventually I just thought I can't, I can't do this, and and then really kind of gave him the opportunity, right, it wasn't just like, okay, I'm out of here, right, but there was a lot of efforting that was made to try to repair it and some that he, you know, quasi tried to participate in, but he just wasn't available, bottom line, he just was not emotionally, mentally available any longer. So I so I had to, you know, I had to take care of myself really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was that a hard move? Like, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, I guess in my own marriage and I can't even compare because I wouldn't even know what any of that would feel like or to even go through, and all of the emotions and everything that you're touching on Was it hard to make that decision? Like, did you feel that? Because I think obviously you hear the story You're leaving your husband, who is mentally ill, who is no longer helping himself, and for some people you know outside looking in, they would think that that's the most horrific thing to do, that you're abandoning him, like that would be the word. You're abandoning him. Yeah, did you have those types of whispers in the back of your mind when you made that decision? Or were you like no, this is for me, I got to do something for myself now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, it's so personal and individuated and nobody would really know unless they were there. But he actually really made it possible. He pushed me away in every way that he could, every way that he could. He pushed me away and he wasn't really wanting or choosing the marriage, and he would say that you know that he didn't. I mean he would be in and out and again, do everything to sabotage and push away me and the marriage, and so I can totally understand that sentiment.
Speaker 2:But it wasn't as simple, you know. I mean going through a couple of years of this of you know, trying all the time and really having no, I mean, it wasn't like he wanted. He was saying let's stay together, I really want to be with you. Quite the contrary, right. I mean there was a lot of resistance, and so for me I think it was really just accepting that a part of him was choosing not to be in the marriage anymore, maybe not to be present to himself at all, but not to be in the marriage anymore. And so me clinging on to that in any way, to try to continue to exert my force or my will to make things work or to make him well, I could just see that it wasn't working. I will say, I mean, to your question, if it was hard, it was the hardest thing I have ever done making that decision. And yet, when it became clear to me that that was all that was left, that was really available to me, there was clear clarity in that, like, I wrestled with it and wrestled with it and wrestled with it and, frankly, it was probably the one that was holding the marriage together by all of my efforting, far more than he was, because, again, I think he was pushing me away because he just knew he couldn't be what I needed. I mean, I think he was aware that this marriage wasn't, it wasn't something he could show up for, and so I think actually he recognized that before I did, I was just the one who finally just said, okay, well, there really isn't a lot left here, there's not a lot left to do here. I've tried everything, and so I can understand it right, and maybe from an outsider, with limited details, that might seem like the case.
Speaker 2:But someone asked me actually the other day, I think it was even my partner that asked do you have any regrets? Do you have any guilt about that? And my honest to God? Answer is no, because I was so selfless during that whole process I did truly everything in my power, again all the wrong ways, and then I tried doing it all the right ways and I did. I exhausted every option that I had available to me, and so I really feel like that was enough.
Speaker 2:That was as much as I could possibly do without again, and at this time I was declining. I was really suffering because I was so worried about him. I was devastated about our marriage. I was so ashamed that anyone would.
Speaker 2:I mean I got married and I thought I would be married to this man for the rest of my life and I would have done anything to help him or support him or to nurture him through that. I would have done anything and I think I did everything I possibly could, but it just was not. It really didn't seem like an option. It seemed like I could stay there and suffer and deteriorate myself and watch him deteriorate and decline, or I could start taking care of myself, and that's what I started doing right, doing my own individual therapy when he wouldn't show up to our couples therapy or when he wouldn't show up to his own stuff, and so that's kind of what that looked like. But I absolutely understand that sentiment, right, and I might think the same thing about somebody else, right? Because I am so wired in this way just to like pour everything into it and sometimes it's just not available to us.
Speaker 2:And so there has to be some acceptance or surrender around that and I think eventually I did surrender.
Speaker 1:I love that word surrender Because when I'm listening to you talk like that's exactly what I'm feeling, like you just surrendered into it. Stop holding on so tight, grasping at all the strings and just hoping that they'll just stay tight and you'll be able to hold on to them. But I love that word surrender because I think that's so fitting.
Speaker 2:Well, and the truth is like the harder time he had, the harder I tried and it created this tension between us right In multiple ways, but it really made him even more resistant to me and so the harder that I was trying.
Speaker 2:Or, if you can imagine, right, most people just oh, hang through it or keep dry heart or do more, like how could you abandon somebody in this space? I absolutely get it and the way the dynamic was at that time, it just truly was impossible, because the more effort I made, the greater rift and the more unconsciously again I think, he sabotaged and pushed me away, because of course, we were off kilter, we were totally out of balance and his being out of balance created an imbalance in me and in our relationship, which, of course, I colluded with entirely during that time, until I just realized I couldn't collude. I had to find the path that I could take for not even to save myself, but just to be well and to be whole, to try to seek that path. If I wanted that for him, well then I had to honor that for myself and maybe, right, that was best, maybe he would find that without me.
Speaker 1:I love how you brought up the point at the beginning where you mentioned that people would assume like keep going, keep doing more. You should know. And immediately I thought of something in my own marriage with my husband is my husband is he's a funny guy and when he's set in his ways and he's set in his mind, there's no changing it. And we've had confrontation in our families and different things like that and I have people always in my ear going you need to tell him to stop being that way. You need and I'm looking at him. It's like you know what, don't you think? I've tried.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:Don't you think it's exhausting for me to continuously try over and over and over again and watch him not do anything different? He doesn't want to. He doesn't want to change. His mind is set in this moment. It is what it is. I'm not gonna continue to waste my breath and my energy to change something, to make you feel better about the situation. We are content in the situation that we are in now. We have resolved it for ourselves and we are gonna move on.
Speaker 1:Not that the confrontation was between me and my husband. It was just between, like other family and people and things like that. But I'm thinking I can't be the fixer in his relationships his whole life, like I tried early on in our marriage when I was naive and wanted to fix it and I realized this is just who he is. I can give him my words of support and what I would do in that instance and remind him. I remind him all the time Is it worth carrying that weight? All the time, and he's like there's no weight for me. And I'm like, okay, then there's no weight for me, mm-hmm, and I don't need to listen to everybody else telling me that it needs to be different, because this is the way that it is. He's made his decision and I can't change that Right. And sometimes it's hard for people to hear where I'm just like sorry, your advice is falling on deaf ears. And it's not because I like and it's because I've tried. Right, right, it's because I've tried.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. I mean we have to allow people the dignity of their own process and I had to learn that the hard way too right, because I really thought, well, I could exert my will and I have a pretty strong will, I can exert my will and you know that will make a difference here. But you know it's not really honoring that soul and whatever their soul contracts and their path. And of course we can try to support and help and encourage, inspire whatever we wanna do. But ultimately if there's resistance that we're reaching, then we have to come to a place of acceptance around that.
Speaker 2:And man did I try and then add in the piece right and our is, there wasn't a lot of rational thinking right On his part, because he just was unwell and that was such a hard thing for me to reconcile is again, it was such a departure from how I had known him for a decade to be, but there was something that really was unwell and not able to access that. So you add in right that resistance or that stubbornness with you know a lack of real, you know abilities to access that rational thought and man like that's a doozy.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a doozy, oh my gosh. So I wanted to ask what did it feel like when you left your marriage and you started the process of healing yourself, or even coming back home to yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I started to heal myself before I left, or else I don't know that I would have had that clarity or access. So I definitely did right, just start to lean in. Actually, I were a couple of therapists at the time. I you know, eventually, when I was the one showing up for the appointment that he was and I just kept going and she was this just magical gift in my life and it actually was so lovely for me to work with her because she had known and seen us right, so she could contextualize all of that and you know there was a witness to that that I could just go and, you know, work with her because I was really invested in doing that.
Speaker 2:So, honestly, it was the hardest time of my life, you know, to come to that and to really reconcile what felt like a failure at that time, what felt like. You know again, this man who I absolutely deeply loved and still wanted to be married I cared so much about his well being that never stopped. I would have loved to have been married, but our marriage as it was didn't exist anymore. It was completely gone. It was completely different, and so I had to accept that. So I really doing that from a place where you're still deeply concerned about somebody. I think I was still in that zone where I was, you know, still very concerned about his well being and that didn't stop. I mean I didn't separate myself from it or I was still available to him, right. If again, he was in a mode where he needed all of that support, right, because there could be this push pull dynamic, that would happen where I was really kind of the only person that he would rely on and come to and utilize for that, and I still was available for that and and cared very, very, very deeply about him and his well being. Frankly, I don't. I mean, it took a long time for me to even get out of that mode where I'm going through this process.
Speaker 2:As I was going through the divorce, I was still all I was concerned about was his well being. Okay, he's fragile right now, okay, he's. You know this, and so everything. All the steps that I took were delicate and, frankly, probably not as serving to me as they could have been. Again, there was still some self abandonment that I was doing During that time not some, probably, and a lot of self abandonment that I was doing.
Speaker 2:I knew that it wasn't a marriage and I couldn't, we couldn't walk that path together anymore. But again, I was still totally available to him and putting his well being first, and so every step that I took during that process of leaving was whether he perceived it or whether anyone in his world perceived it that way it was done with such care and concern for him, you know, to a deficit of myself, frankly, very, very difficult to go through that. But ultimately we just had to take steps to see like does, does something else work? And he didn't have the bandwidth, the availability again to pursue any of that on his own. I mean, if he did, maybe he would have, you know, pursued those things. I don't know, but he didn't really. So it had to be me.
Speaker 1:How long was not to be like super curious. But how long was that process Was a from you know, still kind of not in the marriage, but in the marriage, that accessibility to be to being just you on your own.
Speaker 2:How long did it like practically take to kind of yeah, to kind?
Speaker 1:of separate because, like I don't know, in my mind I just thought it would be one and done so I was, I was not surprised that you were still very much available to him. And I think, and I think the reason why I'm thinking that is I'm just putting myself in that position, in my own personal emotions, in that position, because I would be angry, like I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you are so compassionate and caring and you are probably doing more for your husband in those times than anybody would do for their partner in those times.
Speaker 2:Thank you for saying that. I honestly have peace, because I really know that I did. I really know that I did and I will tell you, anger came, but it wasn't until much later in my own process, right, it was during that. So when I left, I dove even deeper into my healing. Because that's when I decided, right when my entire life was falling apart and my whole identity and my life as I had known it, which felt very again stable and secure and idyllic in all of these ways, was like I had to reexamine who the heck am I and what am I going to do? Right, Like what am I going to do with my real purpose? And so it was during, you know, probably I don't know six months or so, that I was really seeing our therapist as an individual therapist, because he had stopped coming and I was kind of pursuing some of those things that and maybe I decided to actually I think I had decided to file for divorce and all of those things. But that's when I decided I really think I want to do what you do Because, again, she was just this amazing, you know magical healer for me and that she approached healing in the same way that I do, which is she kind of incorporated, some of these mystical, magical qualities and this really practical, grounded you know psychology, where we could, you know, chew on things and try to understand.
Speaker 2:And so I just like thought I want to do this, and so that awakened, and immediately, as soon as I was clear about that, I was clear the path that I wanted to take going back to school and doing all of those things. And I'm circling around hopefully to answer your question. But for me, I just dove deeper and deeper and deeper into my own healing and who I was and what I needed at that time. And so and you know what, I might have even lost track. What was the question? I feel like I was working my way towards that, Um you're answering it as you go.
Speaker 1:It's, it was that timeline between having being divorced and having your husband still being very much a part of your life and then navigating yourself as an individual. And so I believe you are answering it. But yeah, like what? Like that time period? What did that look like and feel like? But you are answering it.
Speaker 2:Oh well, you're very kind. Um, yeah, and so it was. I mean, it actually was really, I think, refreshing at the time. Oh, I think you asked me about anger. I don't think I ended up being angry until much later, and I mean years later, years and years later, and it wasn't even. Still it's interesting and I can't quite explain.
Speaker 2:Certainly there was some anger towards him and I can't explain why or how I felt this way. But I actually felt more frustrated, more angry at the system around him because it felt like they all co, they could see how kind of self destructive he was at that time and I could see it too, and not that I handled it perfectly, you know, all the time, and so it's not. But truly, where I got in my anger is when I tried to pass that baton, when I welcomed everybody in, who, who supposedly loved him, and I said this is what's going on and I still probably feel, you know, there's it's such an ongoing, you know, process of healing this, but feeling like there was no even acknowledgement or support that came. It was like complete denial. That's not happening, you know. And so, because I knew it wasn't his fault, I was, I was frustrated with him that he wasn't taking that, making the effort to change it in a more meaningful. But I knew that he, it wasn't his fault, and so I had so much compassion because, again, when you see somebody take a departure from themselves in the significant way that he did, it couldn't be his fault, right, and so I really felt more frustrated at the system around, because there was probably a year's worth of time or so that others knew, and they, you know, didn't, you know they, they encouraged it, they denied it, they did all of these things and they had the ability to see that they had, you know, their wherewithal, right to know better and they just were in denial about it and not supportive of him in those ways. And so that was just incredibly.
Speaker 2:That is where most of my anger, if I'm really being honest, was directed.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if that helps, but I had, you know, I've had to work through that right in waves and I think anger towards him came, but it was years later and really with the understanding that this wasn't his fault.
Speaker 2:So I always was able to be sensitive, and I think this is another important point that I'll add to it, for me at least, I you know, I don't know how, how I came to this perspective of why I feel this way, but I think I was so able because we had this these 10 years where I knew him so well and where he was this completely other person, that I always remembered him that way and I knew and you know, maybe I'm just saying what I've already said before, but it's I just knew that that's who he really was, and so this wasn't who he really was.
Speaker 2:It was just something he was experiencing and he was stuck in and you know, he couldn't shift out of for whatever reason. But I knew who he really. I knew his soul, I knew his essence, I knew that his behaviors and his choices and his decisions and all of the things that he did that were self destructive and harmful to me even I just knew it wasn't him. And so I somehow was able to hold that balance of that knowing of who he really was and not getting so angry that this is just kind of what he was experiencing, what was happening to him and a place that he was stuck in. So I don't know if that helps, but that was at least my experience.
Speaker 1:So yeah, wow, like I, to me, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just so amazed at your compassion, like I'll keep saying it over and over again, because I just I think we need more of that.
Speaker 2:Well, it really did. I mean, I know I started talking at. It was that time that I decided to go back and do this. And, as I was really passionate about how we organize, it's like I all of a sudden became aware that, gosh, when these really and I'm frankly I had had a pretty, I did like a life to that point, right, I mean, I had a pretty smooth upbringing, I had a pretty wonderful marriage with him and it was all. So I hadn't had challenges in this way until this juncture in my life and what I learned again about myself was like, well, when there's a problem, like, I want to dive in, I want to dive in deeply, I'll do whatever it takes. I'm, and so I wanted to help I recognize that really, the people that I work with now. I recognize this kind of orientation to life and that I wanted to help those people because that's where you can make a difference.
Speaker 2:If we're trying to force, again, our will on, you know, people or situations that don't want it, then we're wasting our own energy and it can't make a huge difference, right, I mean, they have to decide, like, again, this is, you know, everyone's the dignity of their own process to decide what they want and how, you know, and of course we can create a container for that. But if there's such resistance, we have to let them be. You know, we just have to accept that and let it be. And so what I recognize is, if I can't help him, I had this deep passion and drive in my life. Well, where can I have all this energy of how I have all this like passion and this desire and this newfound awareness about myself and how I operate and how much need there is and how much pain and suffering there is in the world? And like I just dove in deep. I mean I knew I wanted to go do this professionally and so of course I was in school. You know that took some years to work through and you know work in this more clinical, meaningful way, directly with people.
Speaker 2:But I just had this hunger at that time to dive in and I started volunteering with all of these different and just like I didn't know where I wanted my energy to go, but I knew I wanted it to make a difference and so I just experimented with trying to figure that out at that time and I really needed that right to feel like my purpose and who I am, value that I offer and this, you know, compassion or empathy or whatever. This I had that for sure. But if I was pouring it into a place that was totally resistant and, you know, not receptive to it in any way, well then that was a waste of my energy and and. But I knew that I could make a difference and so I was seeking actively at that time. Just okay, well, where can I pour this right? I know that I can make a difference, I know that I'm empathetic, I know that I have this compassionate helping heart. Now I've really seen myself go through this, I know I can.
Speaker 2:And then, once I learned the tools of actually like okay, well, these are the like practical, clinical ways that you can do that in a meaningful way without self abandoning, right, but that would truly be useful to people. I just had this deep desire to figure out how, like I'm meant to do this in a different way. I'm meant to pour this. I meant to pour this out of myself, right, but I really want to pour it into places that and people that can really receive it, where it can make a difference for them. And unfortunately, again, I just it became so painfully clear that doing that directly with him in our marriage or for whatever his particular circumstances, just they. There wasn't there, it wasn't vital, it wasn't available to me.
Speaker 1:So I want to take a little bit of a step back and I want to talk about you starting over, because I think this is very key in your story, because you mentioned purpose and just that you said and I and I feel that so strongly for you because you had this experience with your husband that really led you to starting over and you know, diving into your purpose and I know starting over at any point in our lives is scary and hard and I feel like as we grow older, more things come into play, like fear and doubt and just questioning ourselves like do I like, what's like, what's the point of starting over at this point in my life? So I really want to talk about the internal struggles that you faced when you did start to. You know, start over, go back to school, and then how did you move through those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, for me, I really didn't feel like I had another choice, Like I felt like I needed to start over and I needed to figure out how, like what that would be. And so that exploration of all of that, again in therapy and then going back to school, was really hard because again I still had these worries about him. I think my, I mean I once I decided again I went straight into it and when I that is, like you know, the starting over I knew that I wanted a fresh start in every way. I just kind of wanted really to reset and I recognized how much I had really been living for him, probably even in the good years of our marriage, right, there was so much of my identity that was wrapped around him and his identity and the things that you know mattered to him that it was such a deep exploration, like it was really this death of who I thought that I was at that time. Right, Because I, I nothing really remained.
Speaker 2:I mean, I of course had my friends and my family, lots of even that community and his realm and people that we had acquired as friends together. I mean a lot of that shadow and that there's a grieving and all of that right, there's. None of that was available. So I really had to figure out wow, like this beautiful life that we have, like how am I going to fill it if it's not all organized around this relationship? I mean there, for sure, you know you're probably picking up, you know, large hints of codependency.
Speaker 2:right, there was a lot wasn't even aware of. And so it was this self discovery, it was this figuring out, yeah, what am I really meant to do and how do I earn a living, and all of that. And it was terrifying because, again, peeling away, I mean, gosh, I had so many, I was doing it alone and I had had this like highly codependent relationship where we were pretty, you know, connected at the hip for all of those years and just kind of everywhere we went we were together and did you know like really had this, this, this bond and this companionship in life, and so that was just like thinking about, you know, going and doing things on my own, or it just was all new. It was all such a fresh start which was terrifying. You know that might sound exciting to a lot of people. It was really terrifying. And so I, again I dug into my healing, I went back to school, so a lot of my time started being occupied because once I made that decision I kind of swiftly went into all of that.
Speaker 2:And then I mean it was terrifying financially it was terrifying. I'd come from a being in a secure place Again, what was probably pretty self abandoning, because again I was tiptoeing around him and just kind of wanted to. I want to start over, I want to move across town, I want to, you know, rent a little apartment and take out my student loans and figure out how to do that. It's terrifying to think like, okay, I have this vision now for what I want, but I have no idea if it's going to work. I'm, you know, sweating bullets that I can pull it all off, right, that I can financially make. You know, I mean to pour all of your time, because at that time then really, I was spending my time going back to school, going to therapy and volunteering and trying to, you know, make something of all of that, and just started over, even at that juncture, right, with really kind of humble, you know, beginnings financially and otherwise. Right, I was just like, okay, I am going to do all of this and it's going to be all of my own, and all of that was really really hard, because of course, it's a time investment to do all of that and so to whiten up a little bit through, you know, this period, and I was so, in a way, kind of self-abandoning, like determined to do it on my own, and I probably took on some of more masculine traits at that time where I was just so, okay, I got a I'm super independent and I'm probably over corrected in that way during that time.
Speaker 2:And I honestly look back at the time that I was doing, all of you know, doing my clinical work, going to school doing the clinical work, you know, volunteering, and the free time that I had, driving you know an hour to do my clinical. I mean, it's just like I really don't even know where I source the energy to do that from, because that also kept, you know, kept me busy. So I think in that way it delayed some of the grieving and the processing that I could do, because I was again having something to do. I poured myself into that and so I needed to, you know, be diligent once I work my way out of that. And then, of course, I was also so clear like, okay, well, I want to do private practice and I want to practice in this very special way, and so that helped me, that, that clarity that I had and that drive really helped me, I think, just to magnetize success to myself at the time, you know, which is all relative, but at that time it's like a lot of people wouldn't think, oh, I'm going to go straight into private practice and make all of this, like a lot of people wouldn't have done that. But I was so clear with my vision once I had the vision that it took a lot of my effort and time and energy and attention.
Speaker 2:Of course I always maintained my healing along the way, but there was just more to be done. I mean it's been a process that takes years, especially as it pertains to that relationship, that person myself. You know just the grieving of all of leaving. You know that, that identity and that person and no longer having that as a crutch. You know it takes years to unravel all of that and still does right. I mean I still have things, but I'm so much more processed and integrated about all of it, which is why I can even talk about it. I mean, if you would have looked back, you know, many years I couldn't talk about it without just being so upset. But you know it will be ongoing for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1:How does it feel looking back and not comparing the two versions of yourself, because I don't think there's space to compare but to look at the growth that has happened and then at your life as a whole your life as a whole then and your life as a whole now like how does that feel to look back and really see it all?
Speaker 2:I really feel grateful for all of it. I would have never been able to say that at the time I really thought everything was falling apart. I probably felt victimized by it. I was so devastated by all of it and I mean just all of it that I would not have thought that I could get to this place where I could be truly grateful for all of it and trust that. You know, it was all divine and perfect for me. It unfolded exactly the way that it needed to.
Speaker 2:I could not be the person that I am today. I was not living a conscious life, right. It's like I just was kind of walking through, so just not knowing myself, not really able to absorb more of this consciousness and light and aliveness, right, this illuminated experience. I wasn't able to do that at that time and of course, there could have been other, easier ways that it could have happened, right. But I really feel because also I tried so hard, like my MO is not to give up, right, and I don't see it as giving up, circling even back to that that for me I really think things needed to be this hard, to pull me away, like I was not getting the message along the way, right Just to okay, surrender or okay. There's a lot of resistance here. This is not working. I ripped to that relationship and that way of being so tightly.
Speaker 2:But now I look back and I understand how necessary it all was, because of the way that I dig into things so deeply and so completely that I know that I needed it to be extreme to really have made the shifts that I would, because I probably would have kept self-abandoning, I would have kept trying, I would have sacrificed my own needs or desires in life.
Speaker 2:I would have done that. I did do it, but I would have kept doing it If it didn't become impossible. So I look back on all of that. Of course I'm sorry that there was suffering and loss and grief and so much that just was deeply painful for so many people. I'm so sorry that that happened. I wish that could have been avoided and I trust that it was necessary, that it was happening through me, that it was all necessary, right, an opportunity for me to get to be in this place, which took, you know, a while to metabolize and absorb and understand and appreciate for myself and who I became emerging from that and as a result of all of that is somebody who I like so much more than I ever could have really appreciated and cherished right myself, loved myself. I don't know that that would have been possible, that I could have this relationship with myself, had I not gone through that.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's beautiful and I love that takes a lot, like I'm like still processing it all, but it takes like it really does take time to get there and to see the gratitude within all of it. Because, yeah, in those moments you're like why are you doing this to me? This is not what I wanted, this is not what I asked for. I wanted things to be easy and smooth, and why are you throwing, you know, every single curveball at me and making it harder and harder every single day? And and it's so beautiful that you are now in a place where you can look at it and just be filled with gratitude and an appreciation and to see yourself in two different lights and love yourself in both lights, not just in one over the other.
Speaker 2:And I see, I mean it's a gratitude for him. I think he will be the one of the greatest teachers I have ever had in this life, and so I really feel grateful for that right, that I trust that that was all necessary, that that was perfect, that there was some contract right between us that allowed me to really absorb this, so, yeah, oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 1:I have one last question for you, I ask. Everybody doesn't have to pertain to our conversation, it could just be in general. But what is one piece of advice that you would like to leave here with everybody?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good one, you know, taking the time to really attune to yourself and notice what needs to be tending to, and to notice, to invest, I guess, in really knowing yourself and being the best version of yourself. I have come to learn and believe that that investment in our self is the best investment that we can make. So, whether you know I'm talking about my own life or what I have come to witness in others, I really think this interpersonal relationship that we have with ourselves is, like you know, spiritual, emotional connection that we can dive into to really learn and understand and grow. Everybody the world benefits, but everybody around you benefits, but most of all you benefit, right, and the impact that you can have when you make that investment in yourself, in getting to know who you are, what your values are, what you really stand for, who you are, when you peel away all of the programming, all of the strategies, all of the defense mechanisms, all of the trauma, all of the wounds, when you peel all that away to get to the core and really take the time to get to know yourself. However, you do that if it's on your own, if it's in a container with others, I believe there's no better investment and I really believe it's the way that we elevate and we heal the people around us that we love and anyone that we could ever come in contact, how we heal the world.
Speaker 2:And so I just I wish I would have known that or started that process earlier. I love it when I have people who are, you know, I don't work a lot with teenagers, but I'll have teenagers that come and work with me and I'm like you, beautiful old souls, like like I wish I would have started when you started. But whenever we start is perfect. The truth is, it's never too late whenever we start is perfect. But that time and investment to really go inward, to find companionship right with ourselves, and that solitude there's. There's no better place because in that we're never alone and we can't not help but have this ripple effect in the world when we do that. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm like just feeling it all I I, as you're talking, I'm just thinking how grateful I am that I took the time to do that for myself and continue to do that for myself, because, I agree with you, I think it was the greatest gift I gave myself, as much as I thought I knew myself before.
Speaker 1:I only just scratched the surface, and different things happen in my life to really allow me to dig deeper and to analyze and understand who I was and and it has changed my relationship with my husband, it has changed my marriage. It has changed the relationship that I have with my daughter, with my family. It has given me. It has given me this ability to be proud without needing the validation of others, and to cheer myself on and and to have that solitude to be with myself and to listen to my own thoughts and not be ashamed of what is coming up or to immediately judge myself or compare myself to who I was two months ago or anything like that. Like I agree, like I think that is really the best advice, because I think it it really does change every aspect of your life, not just you.
Speaker 2:Well, it empowers us, right, and what I've learned is when we do that, exactly to your point and I love you know that you've had that experience yourself and how beautifully you said that but it empowers us because we can't shield from hard things happening. I mean, it's part of the human experience, it's part of life. Challenges will surface and resurface and surface again in different ways and shapes and forms. But when we take the time to invest in that relationship with ourselves, then what we get from that is is the knowing that we can move through it and like we are capable of that. We get this, this deep inner knowing that, no matter what happens, I will be okay, I will get through it. I know how to source, you know these challenges, I know how how to be so that I can get through it and and I will be okay, and then I can be in a place where I can help others to be okay. And so to me, that's, you know, the most vital thing we can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it has really like opened me up in so many ways. Like I'll say to my husband, like I'll give a scenario about like a relationship or a business relationship or something, and I, I could be like what am I doing wrong when? Where? What part am I missing when? Before? Porsche two years ago, would be like I'm doing it all right. That person is all wrong. I'm not changing myself. They're being ridiculous. Like immediate blame on them Instead of you know, looking at myself like did I say it wrong?
Speaker 1:Like how can I show up as a better version of myself the next time I talk to them? So it's you know, so I can clearly communicate what I need to say, but also do it in a way where I stand up for myself and feel confident in what I'm saying and not shy back away Like how can I do that? So I I always think like I would never have done that before, I never would have asked advice as to how I can change or show up differently for somebody else. I would have been like I'm doing it, it's already perfect, why do I need to change? But after all of it, I realized that we're constantly having to change. Like you had said, there's going to be challenges coming our way always and when we know ourselves, we can handle those moments, those challenges, and be reminded of the strength that we have, and I think it's just like it's a beautiful gift, it really is such a gift.
Speaker 2:I really believe there's no better, there's nothing. I would rather spend my money or time or energy going, and still it won't stop, right, it just it won't stop, because I really know it to be true that the more that we invest in that, you know, yeah, the better, and there is no questioning, which you just saying. That kind of reminds me of the question you were asking me earlier of like, yeah, is there this regret or resentment or anger or any of those things? And it's like no, because I can actually see really clearly and it's not that I did everything perfectly along the way, of course, you know, I'm hopefully I've, you know, confessed all of my faults and the ways that I did that wrong, but I really can sit with this, knowing that you know what.
Speaker 2:I absolutely did my best, though, and there's nothing more I could have done, and I can ask those questions, right that are humble and void of any ego, and really look within and trust that it actually doesn't matter to your point that others might judge, it doesn't matter what anybody else would think, and I was so hung up on that for so long. That's why I kind of got hooked into this secrets, and I, you know, was private and didn't because I was afraid of that judgment from others. I knew what people would think. I probably would have felt the same thing. But when you come to this place where you just know the truth and it doesn't in yourself, it doesn't matter what anybody else's judgment, because I'm totally at peace knowing that. I'm totally at peace knowing that, and so you know. But that takes time right in this work, yet to that place. But I am grateful right to have been there, otherwise it would be a pretty heavy burden to carry.
Speaker 1:It would be okay. See, this is a wonderful conversation. I feel like we can just keep going.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can talk to you all day.
Speaker 1:Oh, this was so beautiful and thank you for being so vulnerable. I'll say it again I just think your compassion is beautiful. There's parts of me that wishes that I had some of that compassion within myself. I'm a very compassionate person, but only to a point. But I just just listening to it was just a reminder of how kindness and compassion can go, can be go so far and not meaning it like it goes so far to a dead end, but like how it can just help people and help ourselves and I don't know like. I just I think really, I just am amazed by it.
Speaker 2:So thank you. Thank you, that's so very kind. I appreciate I received that and I thank you and and I know how compassionate you are, I can feel it. So back at you, thank you.
