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THIS IS WE
The Heartbeat of Honest Conversations with Laurita Gorman
Have you ever found yourself tiptoeing around a tough topic, heart racing, wondering if honesty really is the best policy? Laurita Gorman, a somatic psychotherapist with an impressive 19-year track record, joins me, Portia Chambers, to shed light on the transformative power of genuine dialogue in the latest episode of our podcast. Together, we tackle the fear that honesty must inevitably lead to confrontation and share insights on how a steady heartbeat and the right words can bridge divides, even in the digital battlegrounds of social media.
Navigating the emotional landscape of communication is much like a dance, requiring both vulnerability and precision. In this heartfelt exploration, we offer solid strategies to prepare for those conversations that have you rehearsing lines in the shower. From the importance of self-reflection and writing down thoughts to expressing needs with lucidity, we illuminate the path to approaching dialogues with courage and a readiness to be impacted emotionally, without the rush to find an immediate resolution.
This episode isn't just about communication; it's a deep dive into the complexities of grief and the journey towards an authentic life. We share personal tales of loss and the ongoing process of growing with grief. It's a powerful testament to the strength found in embracing our emotions and the steps we take towards living truthfully through both the sorrows and joys that life presents. Join us for a conversation that not only challenges the status quo but also invites you to consider the full spectrum of human experience as a crucial part of what it means to be vibrantly alive.
Learn more about Laurita @wildlyunraveled
Give Grief a Seat Article by Laurita Gorman
Website: www.lauritagorman.com
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Join me, portia Chambers, as I sit down with women just like you, sharing moments in their lives that shape them into who they are today Stories of motherhood, betrayal, transformation, love and loss, vulnerable conversations, deep connection and collective healing. Welcome to the this Is we podcast. I am so excited to have our next guest here with us. Loretta Gorman is a somatic psychotherapist embodiment, felicitator, speaker, writer and international retreat leader who is fiercely passionate about supporting humans on their own unique journey of healing and reclamation. With 19 plus years experience in mental health, trauma and personal development field, she brings her knowledge and expertise to support people through one-on-one work, group programs, speaking events, workshops and international retreats. Her work has been featured on thought catalog, elephant journal, positively positive and the Huffing Post, and she continues to speak at conferences around the world. Her mission is to educate the masses and provide powerful experiences for people so they can heal the wounds from their past, step powerfully into their own expression of self and become courageous leaders of their own lives. Welcome, I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, love having these chats with you.
Portia Chambers:Yes, so this time around we're going to do things a little bit different, so we often start each episode with our guests sharing their story. But I know our topic is a little bit different and I know that the conversations and the stories are going to kind of organically and naturally appear. What we're going to be talking about is having the hard conversations. I think we all have been there in our lives where we either are the person that has to give the hard conversation to somebody else or the recipient of a hard conversation and have kind of been on the other side as well. I guess my first question or first kind of talking point is about those hard conversations.
Portia Chambers:I know for myself when I've had to have hard conversations, and I often avoid them if I can. I'll be honest I don't like confrontation. I don't like confrontation and I find with myself and I can only speak for myself is that every time I have a hard conversation I always feel that confrontation is on the other end of it. Maybe we'll talk about that to start. Is that idea that hard conversations equal confrontation?
Laurita Gorman:Right, which is a great point to start on, because that's not true. It's not true, but it can be true. It could have been true in the past, but I feel like we live in a world where a lot of our conditioning has informed that, based on our upbringing or past experiences, we may have had the courage to have a hard conversation and maybe it was met with confrontation. Of course, there might be this belief that's been instilled that that equals confrontation. I think that there's also a point in talking about going into a hard conversation with that belief, with that energy that that's going to happen. I truly believe that we can communicate the same message to very different ways.
Laurita Gorman:I'm a big, big, big believer in conscious use of language. I feel like language is the deal breaker when it comes to facilitating these conversations, because you and I could say the exact same message but in two completely different ways, and that would be received in very different ways. Having, I think too, with just the way the world is these days, especially with social media, we have this inability as a society to hold nuance and hold the gray and hold complexity. There's a lot of black and white thinking. There's also this I've noticed through social media a lot, that we don't have capacity to hold different views and opinions and disagree Because we have a different opinion and belief or perspective on something, automatically it's a conflict. It's like actually we need to build our capacity to hold nuance and to actually have disagreements and it be okay and not completely disrupt a relationship because of that. I feel like a lot of that has to do with, again, beliefs, upbringing rigid beliefs and not having psychological flexibility to hold differences. That's a big topic.
Laurita Gorman:Totally big topic the use of language and our own nervous system regulation. I think those two together are really important, key ingredients for having hard conversations. Really, the other way to frame it is having honest conversations. They don't have to be necessarily hard, but they can be honest. Again, it's how we communicate. Are we regulated when we're communicating? If we're not regulated, then that might make for more confrontation. What's the state of our own system Entering the conversation? If we're activated, chances are the other person's going to need us in that activation. That's how it works. The nervous systems are like Bluetooth signals. If you walk into a room and somebody's dysregulated, your system's going to look for the system to tether to you. If that person's dysregulated, it can impact our system. That's why I'm always a big proponent of our own work in terms of regulation when we meet hard conversations, whatever that is, whether it's setting boundaries, whether that's just communicating you need, or whatever the hard conversation is are we taking care of ourselves in that moment before, during?
Portia Chambers:and after it makes sense. I love how you changed it from hard conversations to honest conversations. I love that because it takes the intimidation out of it. Immediately I can have an honest conversation, but it's like I don't know if I can have a hard conversation. When I hear hard conversation, I immediately think the teacher pointing me out in class and taking me out to the hallway to have a hard conversation.
Portia Chambers:Or my mom coming home late and having that hard conversation. Often those things you immediately get defensive. You're like but it wasn't like that. You don't want to tell on anybody else either. You're like I got to take it. But at the same time that's not fully true either. Every time I hear those hard conversations I like the switch to an honest conversation because that feels very accessible in my mind. It immediately relaxes my shoulders, just relaxes me. I'm just like oh, I can do that, I can have an honest conversation because I have honest conversations every single day. I love that.
Laurita Gorman:I love the body and heart because I'm all about the body. My shoulders just dropped. I can do an honest conversation, sweet, I can do this. Let's be honest. Nobody's going to somebody and being like, hey, can we have a hard conversation? Nobody actually introduces it like that. If you are then maybe we can switch that up. I think honestly, and I talk a lot about this- with the folks that I support is the language.
Laurita Gorman:Entering a conversation I often say entering with vulnerability can be really effective and powerful and set the scene and set the stage for that person to receive it. For example, if you need to go and have a hard, slash, honest conversation with somebody saying, hey, there's something on my heart that I've been really struggling with and I'm finding this really hard for me to communicate, but I also know that it's really important and I care about it. It's important to me and I care about you. I'm wondering do you have space and capacity to just have a chat Already? That's kind of the person's like yeah, of course, if you lead with vulnerability, I find that that can be really powerful versus, hey, something that happened last week is really pissing me off and we need to talk, those are two very different experiences on the receiving end. This is why it's such a big component of language and our use of language and how connected we are to our hearts versus our heads, sometimes in those conversations as well.
Portia Chambers:How would you help somebody or guide somebody in setting up that conversation? They know that they have to have an honest conversation, maybe with a spouse or the friend I'm thinking more, a more personal relationship, maybe not necessarily a co-worker or a boss or anything like that, something that you really feel like. Something is almost on the line, like the relationship is on the line. Or how would you support somebody in setting up the conversation?
Laurita Gorman:This is probably going to not be expected, but for me it's a lot of introspective work first. There's a lot of work that goes in before actually the action of the conversation. I'm always connecting people with, connecting with your own honest truth first On the page. If you're a journaler, out loud, just voice-noting to yourself like what is connecting with yourself? What's happening, what did happen, really getting a clear understanding for yourself before even bringing it to the person. We want to make sure that we are super clear on our experience, our perspective, our beliefs, our feelings, our boundaries, whatever that is. We're really getting super, super clear on that because sometimes, if we just go right into it, we often haven't maybe processed ourselves and we might be coming in with activation or anger. We're upset. I feel like having a pause first and asking for that space. Let's just say something happened. Sometimes we can be really reactive and we can be in this place of urgency, of like we need to fix the situation. There's actually a lot of value in asking for space and taking a pause again to support the system to be regulated.
Laurita Gorman:If something happens with a partner with a close look want, a family member, a friend, you might notice in your body like I'm flooded right now and being flooded. I know for me, if I'm flooded I will not communicate effectively. I might say things I regret. I might be hurtful, I'm not intentionally, but because I'm flooded I got to take a time out. I might say, hey, I need to retake a break either, or I need to take some space for myself. I do want to talk about this, I just need a bit of time. That's one option. The other option might be maybe something happened and you never even communicate to the person that you were upset. Right, because that often happens for a lot of folks is that we just keep so silent and we just suppress and shut down and they have no clue that they've done something to hurt you or upset you. They would have no clue because you haven't displayed it. In that case, again, still taking time for yourself first is always the first step.
Laurita Gorman:Get clear what happened, what are the facts? What are the actual capital F facts? Not your interpretation of something, but what are the facts that both people would agree upon. Hey, when this happened, when this voice was raised, when this comment was made, what are the actual facts? Not what we think somebody meant by that, what we interpret it to mean that's our own stuff, that's our own process and story. That happens sometimes internally. But what are the facts? And getting clear on what was the impact, how did that experience actually impact you? I felt really hurt, I felt angry, I felt like my boundary was violated. I felt like you really disrespected me. Right, like, get really clear on the impact it had. So, once we get all clear with this, sometimes I actually guide people to write out what they want to say without any editing at first, like no editing, write it out.
Laurita Gorman:If they swear words in it, fine, like just get it out and then go back over it. And sometimes I'm doing this with folks. A lot of times it's actually really funny. Sometimes my work I will have clients who are like can I show you these text messages and we will like go through it, or these emails, and I will like break things down for them in a way to really understand what's happening in the dialogue. Right, because sometimes we can misadress and I don't agree with text conversations when these are honest conversations.
Laurita Gorman:I absolutely believe in face to face or phone if you can't do face to face, of course. But the first job is the inside job what happened, what's our beliefs? What boundaries were crossed, if any? How do I feel about this and what are my needs? Going forward, being super clear on what it is that you have to ask of this person, super clear in ways that can't be misinterpreted. Once you've done that, then it's about going forward with the conversation.
Laurita Gorman:But you need to be super clear, and the reason I say that is because when we go into this honest conversation, we might get derailed with emotions. So we want to make sure that we've done the prep work, because somebody can then say something and then we can get thrown off track. So we want to and sometimes I tell people bring a piece of paper, if you need notes, it's OK, like we were not taught this stuff in school. We are learning as adults how to relate, how to be in touch with our bodies, how to communicate. Like nobody taught us this. So if you need to bring notes to keep you on track, let's normalize that. That's OK.
Laurita Gorman:And that shows like self-leadership, then it shows like your commitment to the relationship and wanting to get it right and to really have it be a supportive, positive experience, like there's no shame in that. So we want to make sure that we're clear, we know what we're going in with, so that we're not getting derailed by their experience. The other thing that I feel like is not talked about enough is this idea of consent. It's so important getting consent for these honest conversations. It's not just about when you feel ready. You can build up all the courage and be like OK, I'm ready, let's do this, let's have this conversation. We have to take into account the other person. What was their daylight? What are they currently moving through in their life? Do they have capacity? Because the worst thing that can happen is you build up all this courage to go have this conversation and then they've had a really shitty day at work and then you come home and just dump on them something without getting consent first. That's probably not going to go well. So consent, this idea of consent, of hey, there's something on my heart, on my mind, that I'd really love to talk about. Do you have capacity? For they say no. It's like, hey, when would be a good time and let's come up with an agreement when it would be a good time for both of us to have this conversation. We don't know always what people are going through and what they're holding, even our close loved ones. We have to remember there's a whole internal world that we might not know anything about, so it's so important to check in and then, once that prep works happen, there's consent. Ok, we're going to have a conversation leading with vulnerability and leading with connection first. Always, I feel like that's always going to set you up in a positive way. So making sure that you come into connection, sharing something even positive together of hey, no, we went for that walk the other day Like I really enjoyed that. That was a really beautiful experience and I felt like I really needed that. It was nice to connect with you in that way.
Laurita Gorman:Leading with that or leading with vulnerability this is, I'm feeling really anxious. This is really hard for me to communicate, and you can even set the stage in the sense of asking for what you need in the conversation. That's also really important because sometimes people receiving what you have to say, they might want to swoop in with advice. They might want to swoop in with trying to fix, trying to make better or with an explanation of why something happened, and that might not be what we need, at least in the beginning. We might just say, hey, I'm going to share something and this is super hard for me and I'm really anxious to do this, and what I really need from you first is to just listen. You might want to contribute and respond. I want to hear that, but I just need to fully say what I need to say first before we open up that space. So important. I love that Right. Yeah, any questions about any of that, because that's a lot. I know that that's a lot.
Portia Chambers:It's a lot, you know what, but it really resonates with me and it kind of gives me for myself anyways, that power and that permission to kind of start the conversations that way, because I think you always hear. So I have two things that I wrote down. You always hear, kind of leave your emotions at the door, and so it's like do I, don't I, you know you don't Kind of what you had said, when you're in the heat of the moment, or whatever may happen, it is nice to take a step back Because, like you said, I'm the type of person that I'm a Scorpio, like all the emotions are going to come out about every day. That happened before this day and it's just a little Scorpio, I see you.
Portia Chambers:Yeah, it has nothing to do with what we were talking about, and I think that's probably why I don't like competition, because I know that that's immediately where I'm going to go. I'm such an emotional person. I'm getting better at not taking things personally, and I think that's always hard, but I think what I wanted to really ask is is it ever too late to have an honest conversation with somebody?
Laurita Gorman:Immediately know, like immediately know, is my response, is my full body response. One of my mentors so I'm trained in somatic experiencing and Pierre Levine is one of my mentors and he says this line that says it's never too late to have a child that you deserve. Like, let that land for a second. Chills, I know. I know goosebumps and like I'm going to cry.
Laurita Gorman:I am a big believer that it's never too late to have a repairing conversation and it can be the most healing thing. I literally just had a session with a woman that I support and we were talking about a breakup that happened a while ago and months later, after no contact, having that repairing conversation and how healing that has been for both people. It's never too late. It's never too late for that. Of course there's caveats to everything. I'm always like living in the great. There's new ones. If there's an abuse history or it's not safe or whatever, of course you might not have that conversation. Sometimes those conversations won't be possible, but I truly believe that there is no timeline for repair and beautiful things can come from that. And sometimes we hear this advice, sometimes from our well-meaning friends who love us and who have our back and be angry for us and this person's friends were saying, oh no, screw them, you should never talk to them again. And I'm like that's not great advice, because this person just had a beautiful repairing conversation that provided so much healing for them. That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful.
Laurita Gorman:I never think it's too late. I think it's all about attention and I've returned to conversations 100%. I have messaged people years later to just share something that's on my heart or take responsibility for something that maybe I did. That was a mistake that I made Years later, without any expectation of just like hey, you know what I think about it. This is what I was saying to the woman I work with the other day. People are on their journey, people are doing their work in whatever way they're doing Now we can't expect people to just be fully self-aware. Conscious beings live time in the moment. People process after, people do some work after, and then they get perspective and they reflect and they do inquiry. Then they have the tools and skill and capacity to return. So let's give people the opportunity for that and let's not just think that people are not capable and just look at them through one lens of like oh, they could never have that kind of conversation. We sometimes make those assumptions based on our own projections, and that's not necessarily true.
Portia Chambers:I really like it. And as you were talking, I was like, oh, I've done this, so I know it's not too late, but I did it. I went back and voice noted somebody that I knew in high school, that I don't know if there was I'm not going to talk about that, but it wasn't really anything big. But honestly, it still weighed on me. I still felt very guilty for it, even though it was very much a. I think a response was we were just kids. But to me I was putting my big adult emotions on my just kid emotions at the time and it still haunted like. It haunted me and it was something so small, so minuscule. I don't even think anybody would even remember that. That even happened in high school. And I had to.
Portia Chambers:I was talking to my therapist and I said I don't know why this is haunting me, it is bothering me. She's like just send her a message. Just send her a message, Just say, hey, you're all in my mind. I want to say that I'm really sorry for whatever had happened. Obviously that was not my intention and and move on and she goes. But don't expect anything in return either. Like, don't expect a response, Don't respect for her to say, oh, it's fine, Like I was elated that she brought me back, Like I was like, oh my gosh, this, this feels good. But I felt so light after just sending her a 30 second voice note, just saying like I'm sorry, yes, Because in high school is so sorry for the way that I treated you that one day Like I, it haunts me and like how did you know?
Laurita Gorman:It's for you and your own body. You were caring that and holding that, yeah, and like and that's really important to you about don't expect, because they could come back and be like actually, yeah, that's stuff, and I've been like dealing with that for years, like hey you.
Laurita Gorman:I think I've said that and like we have to be prepared for that kind of responsive reaction. We have no idea how people are still holding them, receiving things, whatnot, but I've done the same thing. It was a few years ago and I sent a voice note, the exact same thing To a friend, an old friend of mine, and just shared, like what I needed to share, that I was holding on to that. I was still having parts of rumination about right around how things unfolded and what was my part in that. Like there's a lot of power that comes from, like radical responsibility of our part.
Laurita Gorman:It's easy to blame, it's easy to be like, well, they did this and they did this, ok, but like also it's the relational field there's you, me and the relationship. There's three different kind of energies here and it's really powerful to take inventory and accountability of our part and, again, to create space. We only have so much capacity and life is hard. Things are constantly happening and coming at us Like let's clear some debris that's, and if you identify, like it's still bothering me, so like how many people are walking around with things that are still bothering them and zipping up about it and not reaching out and having the heart on his conversation and not just Expressing, like I'm all about, like reclaiming our voice and like fully expressed lives, like move that up and out, because this one, the body, will, and that will show up in different ways.
Portia Chambers:Yeah, right, yeah, a lot of things I would say before. A lot of things haunted me. That's why I say them. When they just sit in my brain, they just haunt me all the time. It's like when my mind is quiet, that's the first thing that I that comes to mind is that haunting thought. And and when? Once I started therapy, I really started to take that responsibility For things like things that would scare me. I remember having a conversation with somebody and it was last year at Christmas, and it wasn't even really a conversation. It started off as a joke and it was kind of over like instagram, dms, and then somehow it took this weird twist.
Laurita Gorman:And it was no longer a joke.
Portia Chambers:I think we're both kind of shocked like how it turned out that way. And then it was nothing and I couldn't. I couldn't let it go. I'm like, wow, this was not the intention that I initially set out there when I sent the first joke and then yet a few sarcastic remarks later, both like what? We just spiraled and but it was so funny because it was interesting. So I sent her a voice note the next day and said you know what? I have to take responsibility for this.
Portia Chambers:Like I don't know at what point in the conversation it changed, but I'm sorry that it went in that direction.
Portia Chambers:That's not a reflection of who I am and who I want to be and any of those things, and I truly like apologize for that, like I'm really sorry. And it was very interesting because they came back and they said you know what, through that conversation I realized that there was things inside of myself that needed attention and you brought them for and I reacted. But then I really got to sit with them and process them and understand them and and why and I understand why I reacted and I was like, wow, and it was this very like interesting Second conversation where we both kind of learned something about ourselves and gave ourselves this power back Um in it and it was, and it was like my first. I said to my husband it's like that was my first grown-up thing that I've actually done right, where I actually said what was on my mind to the person and and went back and apologized and took responsibility for that conversation and it felt so.
Portia Chambers:It was hard, like it took me a while. I think I like said did a voice note, then deleted it, did another voice note. You know, I don't think I said that right. No, I did say that right.
Laurita Gorman:Yeah.
Portia Chambers:Um, and then it was like waiting to see if they respond like you're, you're just kind of, but after all, said and done, like it was so liberating, like it felt so Playing, and it gave me, like I said, like the power to be, like I can have these conversations, and and it turned out fine, like we both learned something, we were both like laughing after and and it really wasn't that tragic. But if I didn't have that conversation, I felt like every time I did talk to this person again, I feel like that would just haunt me and worry that. Is that how they're seeing me in this light, as this sarcastic, mean person? Because that's not who I am.
Laurita Gorman:So it was so it was.
Portia Chambers:It was nice to have that like grown-up air quotes, like conversation, and and and realizing, and then it it gave me permission to do a lot like I. Just I've realized as I've gotten older, um, that it's okay to be in the wrong and and to be like I fucked up and I'm really sorry that I did that and I'm sorry that it hurt you or whatever it did like. And I remember I did this to my mom and this wasn't that many that's not that long ago, it's probably like two years ago and as, growing up, I was never one to admit anything. Being a teenager, I moved out at like 20, I was gone at like 19. So and so anyways, I kind of I fucked up at one One way or another and it wasn't fully my fault.
Portia Chambers:Um, in this situation, there was three people part of this problem and I was one of those people and and no one else was taking responsibility for it, and and I saw my mom right after the incident and and I just looked at her and I just said I'm so sorry I could have done that differently, I could have labeled that differently, I could have let everybody know like I'm I'm really sorry, like that Whatever happened was was not the intention or was not supposed to happen, and I take full responsibility for my actions. Everybody else Take responsibility for them. Like obviously there was multiple things that could have stopped what happened. Um, but I'm going to take responsibility for mine. And I remember her just like looking at me like almost dumbfounded in a way, like Wow, like you didn't dance around the conversation or you just didn't, you know, talk about something else instead of this. Like you actually just addressed it, dealt with it and was like apologized. And I think she was just like Okay, I don't even think.
Laurita Gorman:You don't live in a society that's like, that's normalized. We live in a society of like screwing around or being passive, aggressive or ghosting or just like putting on a smile. I'm pretending everything's great, but it's not great, yeah.
Portia Chambers:You know, and she was just like wow. And I was just like yeah, I'm sorry, like I don't, I don't want this incident to hurt me.
Laurita Gorman:I'm trying to like yeah, like I'm not caring this, I'm not watching this for like 20 years, yeah like I don't want this um.
Portia Chambers:So let's talk about being. Let's talk about being on the receiving end of an honest conversation, so, whether it's a friend, a spouse, co-worker, anybody, maybe somebody on social media, like I've had some people reach out to me, um, and have honest conversations with me out of the blue.
Laurita Gorman:Um, are these trolls, though? Because that's a different conversation. They were trolls.
Portia Chambers:They were friends, they were friends. But sometimes it was like I was a little bit caught off guard, a little bit um, but being on the receiving end and, like I said, at like at the beginning of this, like I'm Before, portia would be very defensive I'm getting better at that. I think my relationship with my husband has really helped me because he will tell me, like Portia, you're getting defensive right now and I was like, oh wait, yeah, I am, why am?
Portia Chambers:I getting defensive again right now, like um. So I want to talk about a little bit about the receiving end of an honest conversation.
Laurita Gorman:Okay, before we get to that, because there's something that you said that I wanted to touch on because it was so like good, it's like this idea of the fact that you were talking about. You know, I went, said to this to my mom and I Apologize for my part, or whatever and how much that gets to model to people, like what this gets to look like, and by us doing it, it also shows people what's possible, and then they feel more comfortable to then do it Just through the fact of us doing it right. And I had this experience recently, um, with a family member where I took responsibility and I apologize for something, and then they did too, because, like, yeah, I'm. I said you know what, I'm sorry for my part, I'm sorry for this, and they said, yeah, actually I'm sorry as well for this part. It's like, yes, like this is what healthy relating Gets to look like Right.
Laurita Gorman:And sometimes we have to be the ones to go first and sometimes our ego will get in the way. It'd be like, well, I don't want to go first because you know what? Like it's always me being the bigger person and I'm tired of being the bigger person. That happened for me and I was like I had my little moment right and I'm like, okay, this is my ego getting involved, not wanting to be the bigger person, and that's like you know what? I don't get to be the bigger person and I do have more skill set and more knowledge about this stuff. So why not use that?
Laurita Gorman:Because, at the end of the day, what's most important to me these relationships not being right, not making a point at the end of the day, what actually matters and for me it was like I just want to have A nice time and I want to enjoy this company and I want to just connect and I get to be the bigger person and I get to go first, like there's power in that, you know. So I get to like, put my ego aside. It's like, yeah, but you're always the bigger person, and be nice for somebody else to do it for once. You know it's like, yeah, but you know what I? I probably do have more awareness and skill set, so why not model that and show what's possible Right? So I just wanted, because there's so many missed opportunities that I find when people just stay quiet and silent and don't have these Hard-onness conversations, there's so many missed opportunities For deepening connection and intimacy. That's what these conversations do most of the time. Now, on the receiving end, right. Because sometimes they don't go well.
Laurita Gorman:Sometimes they don't go well and I'm thinking I'm thinking of a time that I had to deliver a hard, honest conversation and the person did not receive it well and unfortunately, you're gonna blow your mind with this. The person on the receiving end was my previous therapist. Oh yeah, so this is like a whole other conversation. But therapists me going to see a therapist and expressing honestly something that I needed to share with this person and their full-blown reaction defensiveness was. I didn't even have the words. I was like what is actually happening in this space right now? And, anyways, it's a big story, won't get into it all, but I think for most people and you named it this defensiveness comes up. This darted this like protection To me. I look at that. It's defensiveness, yes, but it's protection and that's usually what's at play. And there's also another component. There's defensiveness because we want to protect our ego, but we also want to protect ourselves. But there's also another part that comes up for sometimes for certain folks, where they want to fix, they want to make better Immediately, like how do we make these feelings go away? You're hurt, I want you to be happy, how do we fix this and just get back to connection. That can be from like a history with maybe more of like an anxious attachment kind of tendency where it's like, oh my gosh, you are upset with me and that might mean that this relationship is over, so I don't want you to be upset, so how do I fix and make this better? Right? So sometimes people can have that experience and the defensive part is potentially some of this like fight energy in our nervous system. That's like ready to go, maybe from an incomplete fight response from our history. Sometimes it can show up that way the defensiveness will show up, right? So if we're on the receiving end and I've been on the receiving end of our conversations and, of course, like this is where regulation comes online we're gonna have that experience. We might get flooded, we might get activated and either we're gonna flee the fight response or we're gonna fight and we're gonna get defensive. Or we freeze, some people freeze, and it's just like deer and headlights and we can't do anything. Right? I've had experiences of all three, depending on the person and depending on the situation. Right, and this is why I'm always banging on about nervous system regulation and that might mean in the moment you need to ask for space if you're defensive, if you need to flee, okay, but don't like flee for a long time, you know. And if you're frozen, like sometimes it's like I'm having an experience right now here in this, receiving this.
Laurita Gorman:I wanna continue this conversation and I actually just need to take a minute and that might. But you wanna be clear about is it a minute or do I need 30 minutes? Do I need to return to this later after days over, right? Like, be very, very clear to the person so that and make an agreement together. When can we return to this? And like, if we have to compromise a little bit, we gotta compromise a little bit. But, like both people, I hear you. What you've shared is important to me and I wanna hold space for this.
Laurita Gorman:I need to make sure that I'm in the best place so that I can show up in the way that I wanna show up for this conversation because it's important to me and it matters to me. So, in order to do that, I need to just take X amount of time and then, is that okay? Can we come back to this at this time? What is it that you need? Right? It's so important. It's about really working together on that. Then get regulated. Whatever that is like some people, I need to mobilize a lot. For me, if there's like sympathetic charge in my system, I need to mobilize. So I maybe need to exercise or I need to dance or I need to go for a walk or whatever it is. I need to move things through my body and then return, right. Some people need to co-regulate with a pet, right? Maybe they need to just have some cuddles with their dog as a way of just regulating, right. Whatever it is, you gotta find what it is that supports you in regulation.
Laurita Gorman:Then, returning to the conversation, but again during that prep work, what do you need to say? How do you need to respond? And it's important too to let the person have their airtime and to have the capacity to hold the discomfort within your system of what they are saying. That's so, because there's gonna be parts of you that are like, yeah, but I need to respond to that.
Laurita Gorman:And I know for me this has happened with my relationship, where I sometimes can forget and I wanna listen to what he has to say in full, but I sometimes can forget and then I don't wanna forget, so I might just make it up to myself. I wanna remember that right. So, whatever I mentally noted or write it down because I don't wanna forget. But I also wanna give them airtime, stay without interruption what you need to say, and I'm gonna listen and I'm gonna. Sometimes I'll place a hand on my abdomen as a way to just cue my system, to just be present and be grounded, even if I'm feeling uncomfortable with what they're sharing with me, and keep myself in check and notice and hold the tension of that. There might be a lot of uncomfortable feelings that I'm having and it's like it's okay though, I'm safe, there's no threat. I have to remind myself like I'm hearing some uncomfortable things and I'm okay and we're okay, it's not a threat. Right here, right now, I'm just listening to someone share their experience. It's so powerful and it's so hard.
Portia Chambers:It's so I'm sitting here, going like it like immediately brings me back to like high school, like that's immediately kind of what I think, especially the like defensiveness, the jumping in like not you know, allowing them to speak, you know all of everything that they have to say it like as your dynamics like oh my gosh, my high school relationships are hunting me to this day. Oh my gosh.
Laurita Gorman:It sends voice notes after this episode to all of the episodes.
Portia Chambers:Oh my gosh, what is happening? Oh, unresolved conversation. Oh, I'm not gonna go down that avenue, but I wanna talk a little bit about the fixing. The fixing because I think I think that's all right. That's my husband.
Portia Chambers:My husband is a fixer, not in every conversation or anything, but I know, especially when I'm like upset or just having a bad day or anything like that, he immediately say like what do I need to do to fix it? Or what do I need to do to do this? And sometimes I'm just like nothing, there's nothing for you to do, like nothing's gonna make it better, like I am the only person that's gonna be able to make it better. Like I appreciate that you wanna help, but you bring any flowers. Or sometimes I'm like, okay, take it, would fix it a little bit, but just, I don't have to think about or make dinner or put the energy into that, but it's not gonna resolve the situation, whatever it may be, or whatever is going on. So what would you say to those who immediately wanna fix?
Portia Chambers:I don't find myself as a fixer, I thought. I think I was very much like cause I'm a mother. I think, as a mother, you immediately wanna fix, you wanna help, you wanna support. I'm really trying to, you know, allow my daughter to just kind of speak and listen, and if she's still staring at me, why died Like? Then I'm like, okay, maybe she does need advice, what? Are you?
Portia Chambers:looking for right now, and sometimes I'll say that, like, what do you want? Do you want advice? Do you want me to help you fix it? Do you want support? Do you want me just to sit here and listen to everything that you have to say? Like, whatever you want, I'm happy to do, but I don't wanna overstep. So what would you say to you know, someone that's listening that may be like oh, I'm a fixer.
Laurita Gorman:So, first and foremost, often people don't need remedies, they need presents, and I feel that we live in a culture that is constantly trying to remedy hard emotions and the undertone for that for me is the message that they're wrong. And it's like when did we come up with that? That feeling sad is wrong, that experiencing grief is wrong, that being angry is wrong. We're humans. It just means that we're having a human experience and we're emoting, and that gets to happen and that gets to be allowed. So that's the first thing is that we it's not just the people who feel like they're the fixer, it's also this overarching conditioning in society. You have a headache, take a towel and all. You're sad, get happy, you're grieving, do something joyful, and it's like can we actually just have capacity and hold space for being in it and feeling our feelings, not thinking our feelings? Cause like that's happening, we're just thinking our feelings and we're not actually feeling our feelings. And it's also I feel we're afraid of making other people uncomfortable in the fullness of our expression, of our feelings and like that's not our responsibility to manage their experience of our emotions. Now for the fixers.
Laurita Gorman:My partner also has a tendency to do that, so we've navigated that in our relationship and now we're in this really beautiful place where he's aware of that, I'm aware of that, and it doesn't happen as much, but it came through a lot of trial and error and a lot of learning and a lot of hard slash on this conversations and it comes from a beautiful place, right. It comes from love and he loves and cares about me so much and he wants me to be okay. He doesn't want me to be sad and it also comes from his own conditioning, right, and it also comes from a place of being uncomfortable, with difficult emotions and also potentially feeling like when we first were dating, his experience of me being upset with him was the relationships over because he didn't have experience with conflict. So conflict equals endings, and that's not true. Conflict is conflict. Healthy relationships have conflict. I'm more concerned about relationships that have zero conflict. I'm like oh, red flags everywhere, who's suppressing themself and who's resentful deep inside and not talking better, right. Yeah.
Laurita Gorman:So it took a lot of journeying together for us to really have capacity for discomfort, and he's talked to me about this now, years later, saying thank you so much, because now he doesn't go into panic mode If I'm upset with him. He has built capacity to hold space for that and for me to be upset with him, and that it's OK, I'm not running away, I'm upset because of something and we're going to talk about it, and so he's had to really navigate that. But it was through trial and error. That's the thing. You don't just cognitively learn this stuff and then you can apply it.
Laurita Gorman:You're going to mess up, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to still have old patterns show up. It's through the experience of that we learn the skills and gain the confidence. It's not about a cognition thing, it's very experiential. And so for the fixers, it's asking yourself what A noticing that that's coming up. So, pausing as I listen to them share this. What's coming up for me? Just pause Again, power of the pause.
Laurita Gorman:What is showing up for me in my body, in my belief system, in my mind? What's showing up for me? Well, I'm noticing that I'm feeling scared because I don't like when they're upset with me, because then I wonder if we're going to break up, or I wonder if there's going to be a consequence. And some of this could be old, ancient shit from our childhood too, where it wasn't safe to have emotions and experiences. It wasn't safe to express how you feel, it wasn't safe to be angry and upset about something especially good girl conditioning Be good, be polite, be palatable Because maybe there were consequences when we weren't. So sometimes it's ancient, material stuff that we've got to do some deeper work about, and sometimes it's just in the moment of I'm scared that you're going to leave, and maybe there's that anxious attachment of showing up too in that, and so it's really taking in with what's showing up for me, making it less about the person and what they're experiencing, but first check in what's coming up for me, making sure that we hold the discomfort. You still get to share it. That person can still say hearing that's really hard and I'm noticing it's making me feel fearful and I might need some reassurance that we're OK and I'm like, yeah, we're OK. I'm just upset because this happened and this is what I need going forward. Oh, ok, I can do that, cool Problem solved. But sometimes it's just about airing out.
Laurita Gorman:And so now it's the question, and it's similar to what you were sharing that you ask with your daughter, for example. My partner will say to me what do you need right now? I get to then discern and decide, rather than him swooping into fix and doing what he thinks I need. He doesn't assume anymore, he checks in, he asks the question. Sometimes it's asking the question. That's the most important thing. What do you need right now? Sometimes I need space, sometimes I need connection, I need a hug, sometimes I need him just to listen, and sometimes he'll say would you like my feedback? Is that helpful for you right now, and I might say no, I don't need feedback right now. Or maybe I need just comfort first and feedback.
Laurita Gorman:I remember when I was going through a really really, really rough breakup and I was talking to my brother and God bless him, he's so beautiful. I'm like falling my eyes out on the phone to him, just so distraught. I'm in the middle of a huge busy train station. I just share my emotions. In a lot of time, I don't care where I am, I'm feeling things are coming out. And he just said to me would you like my comfort right now or would you like my feedback? And I was like comfort first, I just like comfort first. And he's like OK.
Laurita Gorman:And then he does and I'm like you're not even a therapist. How did you know to do that Beautiful? It was exactly what I needed and I think for the fixers it's just get curious with yourself, what's happening, and get curious with the other person. Don't make assumptions. Ask what do you need right now? How can I support you in this right now. Let them tell you what they need and they might not know, and that's OK. It's like I don't know right now. It's like OK, maybe offer options. Well, I could give you space right now. I could make you a meal, I could take you and we can go do something like get our minds off of this person. Or I could just say to you listen, if you just want to keep talking and I won't say anything. Really practicing pause, presence, curiosity and getting really intimate with the person around with me.
Portia Chambers:I love it because, like I said, I try not to be a fixer and I think that's just my own going to therapy and talking and my own self and kind of realizing a lot of things about myself.
Portia Chambers:But I love the idea of options. I feel like I do that to my daughter a lot because she's can be very indecisive and sometimes even just making a decision is hard for her Like just to be like. And especially in an emotional state right like you're, I'm already very heightened, very emotional. I don't really want to think about what I need right now. And I love that idea of options and kind of doing different, very like variations of them. And I really, I really love that because I think as a as a fixer, you feel like just even giving the options feels like a solution. No one even takes it. It's like, oh, would you rather this, this or this? And it's like, ok, I'm still supporting them, even if they take the option of sitting silently, I'm still helping. But it still feels like like you're contributing to whatever it may be, and so I really I really like that, yeah.
Laurita Gorman:And it's interesting too, because I'm thinking about when I I've worked with some women in my past programs and stuff and like getting really honest with them about sometimes there's this illusion that like the fixing is because you want to help the person. I'm like it's actually really about making you feel better inside, yeah, and it's like we get to be honest about that. It's like it's actually not about that, it's about you and like it helps you to regulate yourself. It's like oh damn, yeah. And sometimes it comes with a beautiful place of just like loving care. But sometimes there's that other layer of it, like I'm uncomfortable because you're uncomfortable, so like how can I fix this that I'm actually less uncomfortable, mm-hmm.
Portia Chambers:It's, it's, it's tricky it's layer is tricky and it's interesting and I never realized it so much until I was the person on the other side that needed fixing, Like when I was going through grief and crying. I never realized how many people were so uncomfortable with it.
Laurita Gorman:Especially grief. Like we live in a grief illiterate society, it gave me perspective.
Portia Chambers:I have to say like, honestly, I don't, I don't wish what I went through on anybody. I put man. Did it give me perspective? Did it change the way that I look at this world? Like I always say, like I said to my husband, we were going through all our grief and everything like that. Like my husband has has dealt with quite a bit of grief in his life and and up until that point in his life I had no idea what that even felt like. I didn't have grief to that magnitude. I it was. So I don't want to say my grief was miniscule, it was. It was very, it was a very different degree of grief on a sliding scale. And when we went through that I remember just looking at him and going, oh my God, can I now relate with you? Can I now relate to the day in a specific month, every single?
Portia Chambers:year and another date and another date. And man Because I used to mark those dates in my calendar because I knew that things would be different, because and but I didn't know why Like I, pardon me wasn't like get over it. It was that long ago. But pardon me was just like I, I don't, I don't understand what that felt like to hold on to something and have these constant reminders and and everything until I went through. But man did it didn't give me perspective on all, on all different landscapes of being the recipient of it.
Portia Chambers:And, like I always say to people, stop looking at me with sad eyes. This is not my intention Like I just want to feel it and you're here while I'm feeling it and I'm like it's like I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry that you're uncomfortable, but it's also I can't bottle it up either Like I can't, I can't hold on to it because it's, it's, it's dragging me deep and I can't, I can't let it take hold. And so it's very interesting like having the hard conversations, the honest conversations, being on both sides of it and really like especially like what you had said the power of the pause and pausing and and really identifying what is happening in your own body, yeah, especially being on the receiving end, I find Especially on the receiving end, especially with, like, the topic of grief.
Laurita Gorman:It is huge and I've had multiple experiences of grief, really hard grief, through death, and also living grief. Those are two different things and very different, and it's this my own experience, anyways. That is that there would be parts of me that was holding it back, because I know how uncomfortable people are with it yes, and I know that they also don't know how to hold it yes, and then that would just make me feel worse Because they can't hold the space for it and not everybody can Because maybe they haven't journeyed through it, which I'm so glad you haven't, I'm so glad you haven't. It hasn't touched you yet, we will all touch it, but with grief anyways, it's like grief is a part of living, it's a part of life and it's not just through losing a loved one.
Laurita Gorman:There's multiple facets of grief and we need to become a grief literate society because everyone is navigating it in some way and we need to know how to have those conversations around it and not have it be this big elephant of the room that's there that nobody talks about, but like sometimes just naming it and even the idea you know. For again, with the conversation piece. It's like with grief specific, it's like, well, I don't want to bring that because then they're going to get that and so that I don't want to say their name, let's not talk. It's like people grieving want to talk about their loved one. They want their name to be said and they want to. You know, it's like, you know it's a part of their experience, it's a part of their life every day. Yeah, every day doesn't go away, yeah.
Portia Chambers:You don't have to lose.
Laurita Gorman:Oh sorry, go ahead. No, it's just like we don't. It doesn't end like grief, it's just we live with it, we grow around it, we still live like with it. It never goes away. And so for folks you know, on the receiving end, it's like how can we open up the conversation and not being afraid that, oh, it's going to make them upset, they're going to be upset, no matter what?
Laurita Gorman:because they're really, you know, like they're going to feel, like you care, that you love them, that you, you know you can hold space and that they cannot shy away. They don't have to hide the truth of how they're feeling. So it's also about like honest, hard conversations, for ourselves too, Not just others too. It's like I'm grieving. This is hard, I'm not doing that. I mean honest about that.
Portia Chambers:Yeah, yeah, grief is a big one.
Laurita Gorman:That's like a whole other episode. It's a whole other episode Honestly like we might need to do a part two of just grief 101, because it's, it's huge.
Portia Chambers:It's huge and I feel like post this up the other day and someone was like man, you've been through a lot of grief this year and I said yeah, but you know what A lot of lessons were learned and a lot of perspectives have changed and gratitude has changed. And I said as hard as those things were and how challenging it was. I said I have learned this year that grief is the price I pay for loving endlessly and if that is what I have to pay, I will continue to do it. I said I will love wholeheartedly to everything, every pet, every human, and and I will do it unconditionally. And grief is what is the aftermath of it. I will bear it because it is worth loving that pet, that person, every single time.
Portia Chambers:I will never, I will never sway, I will never change, because I would much rather love and learn from the grief and learn. You know my own strength and my power through it. Obviously, at the time it never feels that way. Bye, I will never exchange not having grief to not loving anything fully. Like I, much rather live and love and smile. That's not being alive, yeah, yeah, like I, just like I. It's not like I know people shy away, like lose their pet and they're like I'll never get another pet again because I don't want to, I don't want to deal with that grief and I was like but you're also losing out on years and years of love and less love. I'm like, I'm like I get it, I know where you're coming from, but I don't know those years of love to me just outweigh the grief and I always say therapy will get me through it. I know that, I'm in it, I'm like it'll help me, but it will never go away and by it it just I don't know like it. Just it just changed.
Portia Chambers:It just changed how much I loved and I so appreciate above that because I don't think I fully loved before until experiencing grief and loss in that manner and then I, just I. It's like I knew what love was in that moment and so I just won't yeah, there's just this expression that someone said about grief is unexpressed, love.
Laurita Gorman:Yeah, a love that you can't express you can't, yeah you have more to give and, and they're gone.
Laurita Gorman:Yeah, when I lost my dog um two years ago, that's like a whole other grief. I mean, I've lost family, that I've lost family members in grief, like, and I've lost my dog, and it's just like it's. You can't explain it, no, until the people you tell someone's gone through it. They get it. You get what that loss feels like and it's yeah, it's, it's hard, it's just very hard. Yeah it's hard. So finding spaces where people get it is really, really, really important, because you can feel super isolated in that journey 100% yeah.
Portia Chambers:I have a friend that I was gonna say. I had a friend that lost both of her dogs, I think within a year, maybe it's two years, and every time we have the conversation she's like justifying it. Look at her. I'm like, stop justifying it to me. I said that is a great loss in your life. I said you don't, you don't have to justify that loss to me.
Portia Chambers:The way that you speak about them, I can. I can feel the love radiating with every word, every whisper, every smile. I said don't justify just because they were a dog that it's not worthy of grieving over. I said, oh my gosh, I grieve over my chicken, like I lost my prize Barbie and I still cry about it and and people will be like and and that was like one of those moments where I was like I'm never justifying my grief or my love to anybody because no one knows what that bond was like. No one knows what that chicken provided me in that time of my life. It's a blip in time, but she gave me a lot and I'm still sad about it like I it's. It changed my relationships to a lot of other things and so it's just it's very interesting.
Laurita Gorman:Yes, and the pet loss is a whole other. Yeah, there's so much that people don't understand with that unless they've gone through it, and there's a lot of people who like suffer in silence because it's just a dog, it's just this, and it's like no, it's not. It's not, it's the relationship. It's a relationship, yeah, it's literally a relationship with a family member. You know, I still cry about my dog. It's hard. Yeah, it's been two years and I will cry forever about losing him forever. I will never not cry about that.
Laurita Gorman:And finding spaces and people that can honor and hold that for you is so important. You can just hold the space for you so that you don't feel shame about it, you don't feel judged about it, you don't feel silly about it, you feel just seen and held. So, like, honest conversations and hard conversations are important and it's equally important that we have the right people to hold that for us and to have those conversations with, because some people can't and that's just one of the hard truths about hard conversations honest conversations not everybody can have them in a healthy way and there's grief in that. Yeah, because we might really want to have a conversation with someone too deep in connection into the sea and they might not be able to hold it, and we have to grieve that of what could be well this was an amazing conversation.
Portia Chambers:Thank you so much for chatting. It was so good about all of it, I think. I think we're gonna come back and talk a little bit about grief. I think that would be oh my that's a whole other.
Laurita Gorman:And, yeah, there's so many things I think you should talk about with that.
Portia Chambers:I think it would be. It would be such a great conversation. Yeah, just from both lenses of going through grief and then also being a therapist that helps people move through grief. I think is is so is important as well, like having that dual perspective.
Laurita Gorman:Um yeah, my personal experience for them as a therapist. But also, how do you support someone who's grieving? Yes, I have a lot to say, almost yeah so we'll be back.
Portia Chambers:We will part two. So it's coming. But before we end the conversation, I just want to ask one more question, and what is one piece of advice that you would like to leave here with everybody today? I?
Laurita Gorman:really should have thought about this one more. Living an honest life is a brave life, and that's what makes us feel alive, and I, I would rather feel alive than numb, and that's just my, since my journey of a lot that I've moved through, last year specifically, I would rather feel all of it than none of it, and so living an honest life, whatever that means, is one of the most liberating experiences we can have of being alive. I love it, that's it so it's not advice per se, it's just why words?
Laurita Gorman:why? Just for my particularly logical yeah.
Portia Chambers:When in my heart, oh, felt it like, yes, yes, that's what I want to live. Well, thank you so?
Laurita Gorman:much again thank you for having me so good to chat, always good to chat. Yeah, yeah, so good, so good.
